EP 154 WF Debra Silverman – What does a good Witch do, but dance with everyone that she meets?

Debra Silverman works at the intersection of psychology and astrology. Talking with her was like being danced along in light through insights into the human condition, her childhood, and my own psyche. It was an emotional, joyful whirlwind of feeling seen and celebrated, and I hope you’ll feel danced along by her sunshine as you listen. For this episode we were able to provide the full transcript, you’ll find it below.

Debra Silverman Interview – Full transcript

[00:00:00] Debra: Hello? Hello. There’s Witches everywhere.

[00:00:02] Risa: Welcome home to the missing witches podcast. Welcome witches. Welcome astrologers. Welcome coven mates. Welcome stars and uh, late nights up with your kid and heartbreaks. Welcome all these things that we carry with us.

Welcome the things that lead us with love, and welcome chats with new friends and getting to learn a whole bunch of new stuff and welcome to the brilliant and glowing. You can’t see her, but I can, Debra Silverman.

[00:00:33] Debra: Am I glowing?

[00:00:34] Risa: Mm-hmm . Yeah, you got a shiny glow

[00:00:39] Debra: well, I spend a lot of time staring up at the sky, looking at stars.

I think that’s what influences my glow.

[00:00:45] Risa: Mm. Yeah. You look sun kissed. How are you today, Debra?

[00:00:48] Debra: I’m doing really well. Yes. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Thanks for being here.

[00:00:53] Risa: I’m excited to have you. I was really excited. I was digging into your work. My parents are psychologists. And I, I spend a lot of time talking with them about this strange intersection, you know, between their research and their work, and then all this reading and writing and interviewing I get to do and, you know, worrying about magical thinking and, and how do we kind of stay grounded and how do we celebrate reason, but also look to the stars.

And I. I find it so delightful and joyful that you’ve dedicated your life to this intersection. Can you, can you tell us about that a little bit?

[00:01:30] Debra: I dedicated my whole life. I spent my entire life with the desire and passion to bridge psychology and astrology. Yeah. Not to say that’s the limit to it. Cuz I’ve also been devoted to the elements, with a equal passion.

But yes, because I started off with the crazy family. It sounds like yours. Wasn’t crazy.

[00:01:50] Risa: I mean, yeah, maybe not so much. They’re crazy in some ways.

[00:01:55] Debra: Well, I had a really crazy family. So because my family was so crazy, I could not figure out the logic. Well, there wasn’t any. And so I began to study astrology and it gave me great compassion for those characters.

And then I carried on with becoming a psychotherapist and looking at other people’s stories and thinking. They need some insight about these characters that they ended up living in that house with. And then as years have gone by it’s become the healing balm. It’s like, I watch people’s hearts soften and I watch compassion.

And the best example was my brother took the class, cuz I have a school. And when my brother took the class, he found out that my father had no air in his chart. And so for all those years where he was try- he was so frustrated because he could never get my dad to socialize or dialogue with him.

And then he studied the chart and he was like, oh my God, this is so understanding now I can’t make him talk because his his mode is like, yours is water. He was nonverbal. He was all about the feelings that he couldn’t speak it cuz he was a man. But you could, I could always feel my brother couldn’t and that changed everything immediately.

[00:02:56] Risa: Wow. Yeah, I can imagine that I’m I I’m excited. I didn’t mention to the listeners beforehand, but I was really touched that you asked for my dates and things beforehand. So you could look at my chart before. I’m sure that gives you a little bit of insider knowledge too, but it’s also labor on your part.

So I really appreciate it.

[00:03:14] Debra: Yeah, no, I can’t do anything that I’m gonna go deep without being able to see, especially your Scorpio rising, I, for me to be able to understand someone. And speak their language. And I think the art of astrology and a, and a really good witch knows how to dance with the other.

And once you establish that, you’re like that situation with my brother, when he stopped pushing my dad. He suddenly became a much better communicator cuz there wasn’t this like, right, right, right. So looking at a chart, I immediately know like, oh she’s double water. Mm-hmm so, so your level of compassion and sensitivity is such an important variable that I can now know that we’re gonna go deep.

And then if I, if, if the interviewer is just all air and they just wanna ask me thousands of questions, I don’t challenge that. I match them. I dance with them.

[00:04:02] Risa: Mm. How did you. Learn how to do that dance?. Can you give us advice for that matching dance? Especially, I don’t know much, but I know looking at my own chart, I got, I got everything in one corner and nothing in the other corner.

So I know I have some, some things I need to sort of balance out. What’s your advice?

[00:04:22] Debra: That’s not true. That’s your chart is so versatile.

[00:04:25] Risa: Oh, I’m not good at astrology. Debra. I’m gonna take all your classes.

[00:04:29] Debra: Yeah, your, your chart actually has the indication of someone that can multitask. Mm isn’t that true? Yes.

So, so you have the capacity to become, um, many variations, but I love the question. There is something called NLP. Have you ever heard of neural linguistics programming?

[00:04:47] Risa: No.

[00:04:48] Debra: It’s an ancient psychological model that was brought to us in like, I wanna say the seventies, but they teach people how to pace.

Like when you’re having a conversation with someone and they are slower. It is to your advantage, to dance with them on their terms, using their rhythm. If someone comes to you and they’re just Woohoo, like they’re jumping up and down and they’re the best thing you can do is I have this great friend who he walks in the house and we just start jumping up and down cuz I know he’s fire.

So I, it would to dance with the other and to mean. That ability to to mean what you say and say what you mean by going really into their depths and tracking where they’re at and making your words meaningful. But if you are talking to yourself, cause cause the person sitting next to you is moving at the speed of light and you’re a turtle or you are moving at the speed of light and they a turtle that will conflict with intimacy.

[00:05:40] Risa: Yes. I’ve experienced that as well.

[00:05:41] Debra: Cause you’re so deep. You’re such an emotional you’re so service oriented and you care so much. And so if someone’s gonna go superficial and not track you. They’re gonna miss an opportunity to get to know Risa what does a good witch do, but dance with everyone that she meets?

I think that’s my definition.

[00:06:01] Risa: Yes. I think you dance. And then, um, like you say, you, you sometimes also, uh, you recognize when that’s not really a dance partner and maybe the dance then is like a bow.

[00:06:13] Debra: Good point.

[00:06:14] Risa: Can you talk more about this early moment for you? The ways that that was healing for you. I know you say in your, in your bio astrology, was this like huge relief. It was this understanding you’ve referred to it already of understanding your family, but can you go deeper into what that was like for you?

[00:06:31] Debra: You know, I have a lot of fire in my chart and I, as a child collected candles, mm-hmm and I never burnt them. I never lit the candles in my room. I had hundreds of candles, like I was, and I loved blueberry. I was such a smell person, but I, I had all these candles, vanilla and blueberry, but I never lit them cuz I was afraid of my fire.

And when I got my chart and went, oh my God, that was a, you know, me being self-conscious as a teenager and thinking, tone it down, tone it down. And then once I realized that I was. Bring it on, bring it on. So it was the alteration for me personally, that gave me back to myself because I would’ve overridden in the name of the pleaser.

I mean, that thing, we talked about pacing at worst, you become the other person in, you’re a brilliant dancer, but you forget your own. And that’s what happened to me. And so then I had to recover, like, what did I leave behind? What were the parts of me? And honestly, you know, I have a lot of energy so when I, when I figured like, duh, but I had been covering it up, you know, we spend a lot of time in life as a child, trying to make our family happy.

If that’s what the role was, I was a pleaser. Um, and then when I figured it out, I was like, I, this is ridiculous. And I got myself back.

[00:07:43] Risa: Yeah. I, I certainly relate to a lot of that as well. Especially the disappearing into the matching. If you’re really good at matching, you’re really good at drawing out other people.

Yeah, you can definitely definitely disappear.

[00:07:55] Debra: You have that in your chart cuz you’re double water. So we should just pull that. So people that are high sensitive empaths mediums, trans mediums, who feel other people, they leave themselves out. They are brilliant at healing and touching, and caring and cuddling and cooking, but they don’t leave the that’s a that’s you.

And then the air people who just love to talk and think, and they’re all about their minds. But the result of that is they can lose their own voice because they’re so scattered. And they’re so curious that they become like information sources, but they get confused about making decisions. For example, those are the air people.

They lose themselves. The earth people are these grounded monsters who love. Food and money and time and schedules, but they get so caught in the outer world’s measuring stick of success that they lose themselves, cuz they’re compelled by that impulse to be productive workaholics. And then the fire people are the ones that they throw their energy around and they’re so loud and they’re so vivacious and they’re so physical, but what happens is they become out of control.

Like there’s no off button. So they’re always running on full tilt until they get hit. Or drama. Right. What happened to me? And they tell, and you’re like, can’t you just turn off that voltage so important to know what you’re carrying. There’s a low road and a high road. Mm. And for me, I had diminished my fire so much and then I found it and then I had to learn how not to hurt people, how not to be too excited, but still be true to myself.

[00:09:26] Risa: Mm. Yeah. What’s that process like for you? Um, as someone who’s really fiery of. Finding fuel or coming back into – my partners in Aries and we just sort of spin around each other. delightfully, you know, and now we have a three year old that kind of makes the loop, I think, between us

[00:09:45] Debra: such a great example, cuz you’re double water.

[00:09:47] Risa: He’s fire. I’m sure he’s triple fire. I don’t know his chart, but I think it’s all

[00:09:53] Debra: and that’s what always happens. It’s so classical when somebody’s missing an element. And this is, I have written a book called the missing element. I don’t know if you knew about that. Yeah. Yeah. But you are missing fire. You don’t have fire in your chart.

We only have one and we call that a singleton. So it’s like having none. So you did attract, this is so classical. If I could only tell you how often this happens. So you brought a fire person into your world who one is so attractive, but two, can you turn that thing off? yeah. And they can’t. So, so then the beauty is it’s classical that the missing element shows up in your partner at first, it’s the best thing ever.

And eventually it’s like, wow, we don’t have the same nature at all. And this is where astrology comes in. Don’t try changing people cuz that doesn’t work.

[00:10:38] Risa: Yeah. And so how do you think about you know, some classical sort of psychology terms when you’re interpreting them into astrology? Or I don’t know if you do an interpretation, but for example, we’ve been thinking a lot about neurodiversity, neuro divergence and, and magic.

There’s a lot of people in our community who’ve had like late stage diagnoses of ADHD or autism, especially women who are like trying to understand themselves, getting this diagnosis and being like maybe this in part explains why I’m different. Why my brain is different. Why I feel like I can talk to trees while I’ve always felt like an outsider.

Can you think out loud about that for me?

[00:11:17] Debra: Yeah. Yeah. Think out loud. I love that invitation. So, so this is the gift of astrology in spades because the client student comes to see our school. It’s a six week class and the very first class we established the elemental. So we’d say to you uhoh, you don’t have any fire and you would be given the homework assignment.

To turn up the volume, start singing loud, stand up in the shower, like turn on the music in the car. We would give you specific practices to get that fire channel open. Mm. Now, with, uh, diagnosis, as you described those personalities, it’s kind of obvious looking at a chart when there’s conflict into someone’s mercury, for example, they’ve got a square to their mercury and their mental constructs are here to do a different thing than we are.

I don’t know why we diagnose it with good or bad. It’s just, they are different. And that’s the essence of astrology. So I was diagnosed as a kid with a learning disability. Well, they didn’t know it cuz I’m old. I’m like headed towards 70. You can’t tell by looking.

[00:12:15] Risa: Yeah you absolutely cannot.

[00:12:16] Debra: But when I was young, they had no such term as learning disabilities and I could not figure it out till many years till I got to university and I felt so self-conscious now, if they would’ve told me your Mercurys in Taurus.

So my mind mercury is in earth and it requires slowing down and repeating things. Hmm. Well then I would’ve done so well at school. Just say it six times and then I’ll remember. And then I won’t, I’ll be the one that never forgets it, but if you go fast and my little mercury you’ll tell me something’s wrong with me.

Hmm. Well, I can see it in the chart. Nothing was wrong. I just learn experientially. I have to touch it, eat it, smell it, taste it. And then I learn it and I never forget it. But I had a real problem in school because while the teacher was talking, my little Gemini raising her hand asking, they thought it was so smart, then the test would come and I’d be like, uhoh, didn’t stick.

None of that stayed in my head. I needed to repeat it. And when I finally figured it out, school got way easier. But it took me, listen, I learned the diagnosis of my challenging brain long after the school was, they called me, you know, they kind of, one teacher told me I was dumb. yeah, that stayed. That’s the kind of stuff that we do in a, in a class of astrology is, oh, you mean my mercury and Taurus and it wasn’t dumb.

It was thorough. And it required deep listening and repetition. That doesn’t sound dumb. That sounds really profound. Mm, can you give some other examples of what mercury in different placements might, how that might affects? So let’s just do it right with what I showed you. So if, if your mind is in a water sign, which by the way you have, that means that your thought process is emotional.

Mm-hmm . Now you have a crazy memory for emotional content. Mm-hmm like I was wearing a pink dress the day my brother hit me. I was standing right in the corner. Like what? But if I say to you, if I ask you a question about something that you can’t remember, cuz you weren’t emotionally vested, it would slip out like a bar of soap.

Like I don’t remember a thing you said. So your memory is based in memory of emotional content. When mercury is in water, it’s not logic. It’s feeling that your mind operates with. That would be cancer Scorpio or Pisces mercury. If your mercury is in air Gemini LIbra or Aquarius, your mind is so much faster than ours and you collect so much information and you get so bored with us going so slow that you just talk over us and you have so many more ideas that when it comes time to make a decision, you can’t.

So you don’t make the decision. You’re the person that says, I don’t know what we’re having for dinner yet. Or if I’m gonna go with you, gimme, wait till the end of the day. Like what can’t you decide? Nope. The water person goes, oh, I so wanna be with you. I’ll make my whole schedule around you

[00:15:00] Risa: I’ve made the plans for everyone, but don’t let me step on your toes. No, that was it.

[00:15:05] Debra: You just did and the mercury and air just changes her mind and forgets that she put her phone down somewhere and can’t find it. And then mercury and earth, as I described Taurus. Virgo Capricorn. They want systems like you make a schedule with me and don’t, you dare change it.

And if you’re gonna change it, you would better let me know at least five hours before. And by the way, I don’t like when you change it. Right. so I’m gonna have my little checklist. I get off on the checklist and I will do everything on my list and the air person’s going. Where did I put that list? And the water person’s going?

Oh, no, I have the list. I can help you. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:40] Risa: I made a list for me and maybe one for you for you. And yours is a poem.

[00:15:46] Debra: it’s so cute. Yes. That’s the poem, the mercury water and mercury and fire is, these are the psychics. These are the witches that just go, blah. Like they have no filter. Mm-hmm and their mental body comes out with one liners and sometimes it’s psychic.

They just know things. Cuz it’s so impulsive. And their voice is louder than the rest. Like you there’s no volume like when fire, mercury is, um, in fire is Aries Leos Sag and they talk so loud. I always know it’s the, they, you there’s like a volume knob on them, but they are so much louder and so excited. You’re like, oh my God, they can’t help it.

[00:16:20] Risa: Hmm. And so you’ve been doing this practice. Many decades you’ve taught many people. You’ve helped many people find out this information about themselves. Like that must be deeply comforting. Like what a gift every time is it, it feels like it would be.

[00:16:39] Debra: I think it’s my most, like, I, you know, it’s like a, I feel so full because.

Every time, level one finishes. And we have hundreds of students that come, there’s only 10 people in a class. It’s an intimate class. And you study your own chart. Yeah. So it’s not like a vague, I don’t like theory cuz my Mercury’s in earth now, you know, I wanna teach people how to catch the fish, skin the fish, identify the fish.

[00:17:04] Risa: I, I get very. Yeah, sorry. Mys, my partner has my three year old

[00:17:12] Debra: and he’s fire. So he is loud. It’s not his fault.

[00:17:14] Risa: He’s literally tending the fire and yelling.

[00:17:16] Debra: Don’t you dare take that out. That’s gotta be in this.

[00:17:19] Risa: I promise to leave. I promise, I promise to leave it.

[00:17:25] Debra: So all of these personalities, it’s the, the gift I have this life is all these personalities come back to me after they finish level one.

And they say things like you changed my life. I have had husbands write me notes and say, my wife is back. Oh, you know, she was depressed. She’d lost her Chi. She stopped making love to me. And you gave her back, her Chi, her fire, her air, her earth, her water. Yes. It’s the most satisfying. I always say this, but it sounds bad but Witches understand this.

If I die tomorrow, today’s a good day to die is one of my mantras that most people, but you’re Scorpio. You get it. Yeah. Um, I would feel very fulfilled. I have done my job. I have watched thousands of people come home to themselves.

[00:18:06] Risa: Yeah. What an incredible gift

[00:18:10] Debra: and all I did. You know what I did Risa so crazy at, at the sweet age of, I wanna say.

20. I became a professional astrologer and all I did was just get so passionate I was so in love with astrology and it’s never diminished.

[00:18:25] Risa: So I was gonna ask you, we have members of our, our Covin, who are starting out with their business. Taro astrology, um, struggling and like sometimes like young queer black neuro divergent, like, you know, people coming from a marginalized space, financial stresses who are like, God, I fucking want this to work.

And I dunno how to make it work. Can you think out loud about that? Can give us some advice,

[00:18:52] Debra: but here’s what I did and this is what I did. And I really appreciate that. Cuz that’s a particular category that requires. Um, extra love, cuz once again, they’re separated, just like in astrology. There’s certain signs that get separated.

It’s also true with our color of our skin and our thought process. Uh, the simple version is my answer is give away as many free readings as you can get obsessed with giving it away. There’s a law in this universe. I, I assume everyone knows this, but maybe they don’t. If you keep giving out there’s a law, it will come back.

Now it will feel exhausting if you overdo your own capacity. But I can’t, I, I brought the neighbors in, when I was little into my room to do Tarot readings. I brought everybody, I did every single human’s chart I could find now that’s my fire. So I was a little obsessed, but don’t stop. And, and in, you can say, let’s do a barter, let’s do a trade.

You pay me whatever you feel like this is worth when we’re done. So that I don’t mean free as in nothing comes back. Like I used to ask people, bring me a gift. So there’s a natural exchange. This is a law, but just keep giving out sessions. So you refine the skill because astrology and the Tarot, which is one of my deepest passions takes years and years and years.

[00:20:06] Risa: That’s really powerful advice. Really powerful. I’ve definitely experienced that even in the last month, just like investing in other people’s projects and three days later, check in the mail for something unexpected, you know, it’s,

[00:20:19] Debra: it’s really true! Yeah. And, and, and giving is the gift of the soul. The reason why we come to this planet, if anyone’s wondering why you’re here, it’s one to evolve your soul.

Like you keep incarnating again and again, and again, to become your authentic self. So the sooner you learn astrology and who you are. That’s the fast track. And the second is to serve. I have this friend that has this quote, he made up, you know, why we live forever, cuz it takes that long to say thank you.

[00:20:47] Risa: yeah, I feel that

[00:20:48] Debra: he’s cancer rising and he’s double water. Like you, he has the most beautiful one liners. If you can’t handle what’s in the here and now don’t worry. You can try again later.

[00:21:01] Risa: Don’t worry. Here’s another question. And this is in part inspired by our community here, too. Thinking about astrology, psychology, mind, body stuff. Um, the impact of our stars or our psychology, our mental state and our body, our, our lived experience thinking about like chronic illness. People… I mean, I, myself, many people, especially in this like kind of environmentally fucked world, many of us living with chronic illness is there guidance for us in, in thinking way back through it or feeling a way back into our bodies?

[00:21:37] Debra: What is yours?

[00:21:38] Risa: I had, uh, a neck injury when I was like 13 and then I had a migraine for 10 years. I couldn’t, I couldn’t see clearly for 10 years I saw auras and was in constant pain for 10 years. And so now sometimes it comes back, um, auras come back or like this thing will start to come back in my back, but I don’t get migraines anymore.

[00:21:59] Debra: That’s so in your chart!

[00:22:01] Risa: Is it?

[00:22:01] Debra: Yes. You have Uranus. It sounds so funny. Whenever I say it, I hate saying it. Cause it sounds so funny. Never stop thinking that word is funny. okay. I can I Uranus Uranus, I dunno like a six year old you have Uranus. I don’t know if you know this when you were born on the horizon.

Exactly. At the moment of your birth on the Eastern horizon was the planet Uranus. And so the first house is the body. The the, the Uranus is sitting in the first house on the Eastern horizon. That is the body. That’s the soul, whatever was whatever planet. If there was one sitting on the horizon at the moment of your birth, it’s the signature of the chart.

And yours is Uranus rules. The nontraditional who cannot follow. Yeah, she cannot be part of the group mm-hmm and it’s in Scorpio, which is, um, it can be physical pain. Scorpio has a huge tolerance for pain mm-hmm . So you came in prepared to alter, like your soul said, I’m gonna deal with physical pain as a doorway to push me into stillness.

[00:23:01] Risa: Yes, literally.

[00:23:04] Debra: what was she thinking? So it’s it’s and, and you, it, it opened the door for you to say, I cannot be part of the group because I’m not gonna follow that rhythm, cuz I’ve gotta tend to my body. Yeah. Cause I’ve got Uranus sitting here on my body, on the physical, on the first house side. My body is being asked to radically depart from what everyone else does and to go into the pain body Scorpio in order to find wisdom.

I don’t know what you were thinking when you signed up for that..

[00:23:30] Risa: Feels right. dunno what to tell you still feels, right?

[00:23:34] Debra: There’s a wonderful, there’s a wonderful man out there called Christian Sundburg S U N D B E R G. And he tells the story of what happens before we incarnate. And before he incarnated, he also took pain on that was his agreement.

I mean, really people are either on drugs or they’re just taking one for the team. I don’t know. So, um, he, and then once he moved through the pain, he became the wisdom source of why we come into a lifetime and absorb chronic pain. And I had a husband who died of Ms. So I watched it up close and personal.

He was Saint a person that takes on collective pain. Like you have, has the capacity to meditate it away. But it requires pure silence. You need a lot of don’t bug me.

[00:24:21] Risa: Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm . Yeah. Yeah. I mean the process for me of coming out of migraine, um, I worked with, um, an Alexander teacher. So it was also just about like Mo coming into my body, like coming back gestures that were gentle coming back into my body.

And now maintaining it is definitely like wall of silence. Spaces of silence.

[00:24:47] Debra: Oh, that’s so beautiful. I loved the imagery of the body moving slowly in a wall of silence and no, it’s not for all Scorpios. This is specific to a planet. Conjunct, the ascendant Scorpio, rising to general terms. You could easily say they will suffer from physical symptoms in order.

Listen to me, ready? Scorpio will destroy the ego in the pursuit of its soul. It’s the only sign that will kill itself before the, um, Attacker comes to get them. They will, they will, their, their, their tail will kill itself. So they have a very high level of intensity. This is you. And that includes pain down here on earth.

And then the high road of that is to your point, let me do gentle. And then you master that. And then that’s, that’s a heavy path that is Scorpio rising. Did you not know that Scorpio risings use pain as the doorway?

[00:25:41] Risa: No. No. I didn’t know that. That makes sense though.

[00:25:46] Debra: And you’re a soul who took on a lot of karma because you can’t – with a sun in the – you, your sun is in the eighth house.

You can write this down. Astrology students, whatever house the sun is in is the most important house in a Zodiac. You’ll learn this in my level one class. And you have son in the house of Scorpio. You probably didn’t know that. No. So, not only are you Scorpio rising, but you have sun in the house of Scorpio.

And so this now explains that this person did not do a beige life. you like, give it to me, give it to me. I can handle it. I can handle all of it. Let’s see how intense you can put me into that small space, which is migraines. Do. Yeah. And see if I can find the door.

[00:26:26] Risa: Yeah, it’s so funny. I, I often have like a, a story about my life that people are like, what?

[00:26:36] Debra: That’s so Scorpio. I happen to love them. I I’m in love with it because people one get a bad rep. But in the system I teach, which is esoteric astrology. Scorpio is one of the very top highest evolved signs because you come down here to eat pain. Mm. The people have a misnomer, and I think witches know this, we suffer.

In the soil of pain is where wisdom grows. We suffer to find wisdom. I mean, I don’t know who made it up. I don’t agree with it, but it’s too late now. That’s how it goes down here. So if suffering becomes the door to joy, eventually then eat the poison and turn it into colors. That’s what the peacock does.

The peacock eats poison off of the tree and it turns it into neon colors. Hmm that’s what Scorpios do they eat poison and turn them into beauty. Hmm.

[00:27:25] Risa: I have one more question about my own chart, and then I’d love to give the folks here an opportunity to ask you questions. I can hear my kid. I had another astrologer.

Tell me once that something about family was in a place that had to do with death so that people in my family would have to encounter death or face death or something like this. And my. We were at the hospital again last night, my daughter has a, has a anaphylactic allergy to bovine protein.

So it’s like butter, margarine, milk meat. So it sneaks in kind of everywhere and it crops up in things that, yeah. Anyway,

[00:27:59] Debra: so what happens to her? She can’t breathe?

[00:28:02] Risa: Yeah, she goes in anaphylactic shock.

[00:28:05] Debra: Oh my God.

[00:28:06] Risa: So she didn’t last night. She didn’t go into anaphylactic to shock last night. Thank goodness. We’re doing um, desensitization.

So she takes a teeny, teeny bit every day and we increase it every month and she had her regular amount yesterday. But if her immune system is down, I guess she was getting a cold and we didn’t know if her immune system is down, then her she’ll react to amounts that were previously okay. So just, she got a swollen and wheezy and yeah,

[00:28:32] Debra: it’s just so you, you’re built for intensity.

And I wouldn’t say death, that’s way too strong. I would say what I think she’s talking about. You know, I would hard to point at what she’s aiming at, but I can see that you have a, you’re a crisis management person. I’d have you in crisis anywhere you are built to come into the calm when there’s stress.

[00:28:56] Risa: Yeah, that’s true. yeah. My, we leave these things that my husband is weeping. We leave the hospital, my husband’s weeping and he is like, are you gonna be okay? I was like, I, I mean, yeah. , I don’t know. I’ll I’ll find a time to cry about it a week from now. It’ll seem unrelated.

[00:29:12] Debra: exactly right. Good catch. That is so you

[00:29:15] Risa: so funny. Um, okay. Well, I’m glad you don’t see like death looming in my,

[00:29:19] Debra: No, look, see that’s children or something. for astrology. Like there’d be a little astrology, which that would come to the person’s house and say, do not say that to anyone that is not okay. That’s not true. Mm it’s true. That you can, you are fearless in the face of.

Deep pain, sorrow death. You would be the, a doula. You’d be a great doula.

[00:29:43] Risa: Mm, my sister’s a doula. I, I, to be fair I also like, took something thoughtful that she said and blew it up in my mind over time. yes.

[00:29:52] Debra: That’s Scorpio and negative thoughts,

[00:29:55] Risa: less on her and more on me. But I did wanna ask about it.

, I have so many more questions, but I do wanna give the folks who are here, an opportunity to ask, because what a gift to get to have you with us. And it’s so nice for our Coven to get to be here live and not just listen to recordings. So that’s the real treat of being here. So go ahead and unmute and, and say hello

[00:30:17] Debra: good. Hi, Cassandra. You’re. Isn’t that the name of a witch?

[00:30:24] Cassandra: Yeah, no one listens to Cassandra.

[00:30:26] Debra: Well, isn’t that the story of too many women?

[00:30:28] Cassandra: Uh, so I have a Leo son and an Aquarius moon, and my oldest is a Leo and my youngest is an Aquarius. Do you have any like hot takes on that?

[00:30:43] Debra: first of all, did you know you were born under a full moon?

[00:30:46] Cassandra: Uh, yes. Cause, um, I go, uh, pardon batshit crazy on full moon.

[00:30:51] Debra: Well, your chart, whenever the sun and moon are opposite, that tells us it’s a full moon, cuz the sun that’s the clue.

A new moon is when there’s no reflection and that sun in the moon are hanging together, holding hands, make it out in the back room. Don’t look, it’s a dark sky. Leave me alone. But when it’s a full mood, it’s like, well, wohoooo! so you have that very, and that means that you’re extremely intuitive. It’s no surprise.

You’d be interested in. Understanding the magic, because that’s what the chart suggests when the moon is that full and we’re all outside dancing. That was the perfect time for the witches to come out. Um, and then of course, this is a great question because it is classical. Just like we found out that Risa’s husband was fire, cuz she has no fire, no surprise.

You would have children who match your chart. We come in pods. And when I looked at the family’s charts, it’s unbelievably consistent that the children’s chart and the parents’ chart are perfect mirrors and that they trigger each other. So the more comfortable you are with your Leo, the more comfortable your Leo child will be.

The more wisdom you have for your Aquarian child. The more wisdom you’ll get to yourself. So there’s a. Echo chamber. And it’s like my, I have children and there, there was three of them sitting at the table, one married into the family and they’re all Gemini rising. And I was like, isn’t this funny that I’m a Gemini and there’s all.

So we come in clumps and then I watch the way we all talk so fast and everybody’s moving their hands and everybody’s changes topics and we’re all laughing. We don’t even know what the cryptic and I’m like, welcome to Gemini. So in your family, it’s a little different. It’s the willfulness. Your, um, what the challenge for you, Cassandra is with those kids is you can’t argue with a Leo, or an Aquarian.

Well, you know that, right?

I, yeah. Mm, thank you. You just, uh .

So what the medicine for that is pick your fights and say, okay, you don’t wanna take a bath tonight. It’s fine. But tomorrow night you get no vote. So you, you work on where you’re BU cuz you do not wanna fight with those people. They’ll lose their will.

When we take our children and we start to impose on a Leo or an Aquarian, they get feisty. They get, by the time they’re teenagers, they’re like I’m outta here. So the way they would do that is you’d say to them, this is a non-negotiable and use that term very slowly and very deliberately like this moment.

And let them learn that this is not, you do not get a vote, but this time you don’t wanna wear those weird clothes. Mr. Aquarius. Cool. You wear whatever you want. I’m not gonna tell you what to wear. Who wants to fight with the kid about what they’re wear.

Uh, nobody So you remember that your mom trying to tell you what to do and how your will would show up and not wanna listen.

[00:33:23] Risa: Oh, she told me multiple times that I should be a lawyer, which I’m like, oh man, I have anxiety. I can’t do that.

[00:33:30] Debra: but she had the point was that she didn’t wanna fight with you. Absolutely. And so, so when we know those people are like that, when you have a child like that, you like as distinct from what Risa would be like. She would be at the softest sweetest little child who was using her will secretly with her eyes and staring at people, but she wasn’t gonna argue. She was just gonna stick her feet in the ground and not move when she didn’t want to. That’s what Scorpio rising does. That’s not true with the Aquarius Leo they’re loud and they are not gonna listen to you.

And so then you have to have, this is what I call, I call it the mean mom, when my kids got to that point where I could tell cuz I had one child who was a double Aries. And so I didn’t wanna fight with a double, like it’s gonna burn the house down. So, but I would do it like this as soon as it would get to that pitch, I would say uhoh mean mom’s here and they’d go mean, mom.

It would only be rarely that I would ever do that, but they knew to be scared of mean mom.. Because when I warned them, you would do one more of that thing and mean mom is here. No, and I taught them because I, they learned a very neutral spot. I’m gonna use my voice and you’re gonna hear me. And they, I scared the shit out of them.

And then they learned they never had to have mean mom, if they would, when I reach that pitch, when the kid gets that willful, you get to either say, I surrender and they love when you do that. Or you get to call out mean mom, but warn them stay awake because that’s two willful kids.

[00:34:55] Cassandra: Thank you. You just gave me very, very many affirmations. how I’ve been feeling. So thank you. I appreciate you

[00:35:03] Risa: what an interesting thing to notice over the years that reflection between parents and kids. I mean, that, that, so speaks to what so many of us know that our kids are there to bring out the thing that we needed challenging on, but to see it even reflected in charts is so interesting.

[00:35:21] Debra: And so what happens to your point Risa is a mom. Like you would end up with a fire kid cuz she has no fire. And then you’re like, I don’t know how to do this well that kid’s gonna teach you. Yeah.

[00:35:30] Risa: She’s like Libra. Um, and then she has like Scorpio all throughout her chart. She’s got no surprise.

[00:35:38] Debra: See my point.

[00:35:39] Risa: Yeah. Seven different kinds of Scorpio. I was like, I’m in for this. I was looking at her chart like, okay. And she does, she gets like, she’s summoning her rage, you know?

[00:35:52] Debra: And good for you. So then your willingness to be comfortable with it is you get to say, this is what I do with kids. You echo it and you go, whoa, you look angry.

Don’t, don’t say stop being angry to a Scorpio that just makes them pissed off or totally. How do you get something? Leo pissed off. Tell them to stop being loud. Tone it down. Now you tone it down. So you just raise your voice and match the kid. Or if it’s the Scorpio kid, you say, I really see your anger right now.

And by the way, you may have to go in your room because this is more than I can handle, but you don’t dismiss it. You don’t diminish it. You don’t, you name it. I call it tagging with kids. You tag what they’re doing. You name it? Yes. And then you give them a vote.

[00:36:32] Risa: Yeah. Yeah, we did this just the other day. Yeah.

She’s stormed off if my, you know, kept checking back to make sure my parents were following her, but she stormed off down the street. I’m going to the park. Parents just don’t understand, understand storming, storming, but then like checking, make sure someone was with her

I came to get her and she was like, kind of agreed to leave the park, got into my arms, but then looked at me with. She’s like, do you see my face? do you see my face?

Like, what’s that face? She’s like, I’m so angry. Like, gosh, you are so angry.

[00:37:10] Debra: Bingo and you echoed, so yeah

[00:37:12] Risa: I have parents of two psychologists. They don’t speak astrology, but they do speak. Psychology, you know, ,

[00:37:18] Debra: you can see the magic of knowing children’s charts. And I got the privilege of working in a school, a whole school one year where every kid in the school with the teacher, I went through their chart.

I got to say to the teacher, you do not let that little Libra girl sit next to that little Aquarius girl. Cause they’re not gonna stop talking. And then we really learn distinctly, this kid needs you to touch them. When you’re talking, this kid needs you to leave them alone. When you’re talking like there was distinctions.

And I can’t think of more significant work in this lifetime than helping children understand their chart. And we have a specialist in our team on Instagram called luminary parenting, and she specifically deals with the kids’ chart and the parents’ chart. And she is brilliant. Oh my God. on my team.

I have 20 astrologers that I’ve trained professionally and they have all different interests, but there is one specifically working with parenting.

[00:38:07] Risa: That’s so powerful and so awesome. Can you tell us more? So, um, registration will open again in September, I think for the school?

[00:38:15] Debra: Yes, September and January, the two times that’s only when we have the school open, there is a, um, immersion coming up.

That’s gonna happen before it opens in September where. I meet with everyone for 10 days and we do meditations and prayers and we do all kinds of magic. But, um you wanna, again, the waiting list, you just go to my website, Deborah it’s three words, Deborah Silverman, astrology, D E B R a. And um, yeah, the school starts twice a year and there’s about 600 students that show up.

We can only do that many, so there’s a wait list. And people finish level one and they really remember who they are and you can study your kids during the class, cuz that I think that’s the most important thing in the whole world is think of how different I would’ve been. If my mom would’ve understood, I had fire. God.

[00:39:03] Risa: And then, the school goes on in levels and people can actually take this training to

[00:39:07] Debra: Become astrologer. Yeah.

[00:39:08] Risa: Astrologers, right? Yeah.

[00:39:10] Debra: So level one is just a personal transformation where you really study your own chart. Level two is the technology of how to do a reading. You actually get the how-to and we give you a client, your first client, so you can get the ball rolling.

And level three is with me or one of my advanced, astrologers. And then you do readings in front of us. And we teach you the skill. And then if you’re really keen, well, you can, by the end of level two, you can start doing readings and get paid. I mean, it’s that succinct. And we have such a good track record of people paying us back.

The level one’s a thousand level two is 2000. And by the time they finish level two, all you gotta do is get, you know, 10 students that you volunteers pay you a hundred dollars and you’ve paid yourself back for level one.

[00:39:52] Risa: I love the fact that you’ve been doing it for so long and there’s such an investment in learning yourself in understanding yourself and …

[00:39:59] Debra: cause I’m a therapist it’s not… it’s not normal astrology where it’s technical and it’s jargon. I can’t stand that. They start talking about all this stuff and you’re like, I don’t know what she just said, but if I can simplify and say, look, Uranus is sitting on -sounds so funny -on your ascendant on your body, this lifetime. So you’re going to deal with radical entrance into the pain body and then the beauty of stillness and silence taking you outta the pain body.

[00:40:25] Risa: Yeah. I mean, the greatest thing I learned from that experience is what it is to know pain. Right. Cuz then you’re just. You just know other people, you just have this, it just opened up my…

[00:40:39] Debra: that’s the highest road. I mean, Scorpio is the point of the avatar. There’s a one thing that humans don’t ever admit to.

But look how we come into this planet. Our mom is screaming and yelling. Yeah. Hello, anyone that’s given birth goes like who made that up? But that’s how it goes down here. It’s oh, oh, yum. Mm-hmm like, I tell people when people are making love, you can’t tell if it’s fun or painful. Like, what are those sounds?

yeah. Yeah. that was a funny image. Gotcha.

[00:41:08] Risa: you went right from the one to the next too. I had them blurred in my mind.

I love it.

So something we often ask at the end of an interview and I, I think I have you for maybe five more minutes is, What is a ritual or a practice, something that’s helping you right now. I know you’re going right now into a live meditation you’re offering. So there’s a lot of places that people can connect with you and your work that are free and incredibly generous, and that people can kind of follow with you and your shiny, shiny light, but what’s something, what’s something that’s helping you right now in the world.

What’s something that we can, we can carry from Debra today.

[00:41:52] Debra: I do a really strong practice with my breath and I don’t do Prana Yama. I, I literally am on my bicycle, my witch I’m on my broom. electric bike and every single day, wherever I am in the world, I’m on that bike. So I think of it as my broom and I do deep breaths.

I’m very deliberate about breathing in holding it and then slowly breathing out peace or calm. Or love. I do it every single day. I do a conscious, I count them in a day. How many times did I stop time, breathe in, hold it, and then breathe out slowly. And if I, I literally have learned to do this as a practice, I mean, it’s not woo woo.

And it’s not like some sophisticated mantra that comes with some culture that I don’t even know. I just breathe. And it’s really supported me in being deliberate. Mindfulness. So that’s one simple one. I have many rituals. I am a candle burning, incense burning every single day. I get in trouble cuz there’s little incense droppings all over cause I, I am a little, I call it incense poop.

I am a, ritualistic monster because I remember the temples that I came from and I didn’t get this lifetime, this gift of astrology without having spent lifetimes inside of a temple. So that has carried through with me. And that means, you know, cleanliness. I didn’t understand this till I got older. Earth. Mine was missing.

My element was earth. So I’ve created ritualistic repetitive. I have my favorite smells. I have my favorite candles. I have my favorite, um, routes that I’m like a broken record. everyone knows where I am, cuz I go in circles, but it’s given me the gift of calm mm-hmm and taking deep breaths is my very favorite one.

[00:43:42] Risa: Thanks for that. We are definitely big fans of the practical, practical, practical magic

[00:43:48] Debra: Cause your moon’s in Virgo, four planets in the 10th house of being a professional. You can’t stand fake.

[00:43:57] Risa: That’s true. Except when I, uh, I wasn’t fake, but I definitely, uh, rode it out in the corporate world for quite a while.

[00:44:04] Debra: That’s what you had to learn.

[00:44:06] Risa: Yeah. Oh my gosh. You are just a delight to talk to. Thank you so much for your time. It’s really such a pleasure. Um, I sort of wish this was video recorded so people could just see your, your beaming.

[00:44:21] Debra: so funny. I don’t, I it’s just, I think I ate the sun when I was little.

[00:44:26] Risa: It’s yeah, you you’ve got that fire thing, but not that fire thing where it’s like, whoa, turn it down, lady. I need a break.

[00:44:34] Debra: I know, you know what? You’re so sensitive and it is a problem with all my fire. I’ve had to learn this lifetime that not everybody can handle my. It’s the sun that I ate yeah. On their sunglasses and move a little back a little bit. I used to take it personally and get my feelings hurt.

Then I realized there’s some of my friends who are fire, who just think I’m cute and little. Mm . Yeah

[00:44:57] Risa: what a also interesting gift, just the focus on the elements. I think I knew that was there in astrology, but to have that as just this core touchstone, these four things to look at will help me.

[00:45:08] Debra: And that’s witchcraft a lot. That’s the book I wrote the missing element, which is subtitled compassion for the human condition. Um, you learn about the four elements right off the top. It’s a very simple book. You take a test in the it’s like second chapter and you figure out your missing element and then you go read about it.

And it, I pretend there’s well, there’s four wheels in a car, like four elements. One of those elements goes down and you can’t drive. Hmm. So you wanna have water, air earth and fire. And that’s the whole, my system that stands out the very beginning of everything I do, it starts with the honoring of the four directions.

[00:45:43] Risa: Yeah, us too. Yeah. I mean, you call yourself whatever you like, but you were in the Pantheon of Witches I was missing. Certainly. So it’s a real pleasure to meet.

[00:45:57] Debra: I’m so happy. Thank you so much.

Thank you for your time. I can’t wait to share this episode and share all your work with our listeners.

Thank you again. Be safe. Blessed fucking be. So love. Go, just look up and just remember the faith that you have. The sun will come up tomorrow and the moon is moving through the sky and it’s completely dependable. And while this world said the elder gets scarier and scarier, you can trust that there is a design.

Every astrologer knows that. Perfectly organized by an intelligence. We cannot understand. And I don’t think they can understand us either. I just made that up!

[00:46:36] Risa: All right. I’m spinning open the circle, go and find Debra’s meditations and books and work. Find each other, support each other. Find your missing elements. If you’re like me, let’s go turn up some fucking music and yell real loud and find our fire again. All right. My loves my friends, my witches, my wise ones. Blessed Fucking Be..