For Samhain this year - the halfway point between autumn equinox and winter solstice - we’ve invited a Witch who needs no introduction, but we'll her one anyway: Pam Grossman is a writer, curator, teacher, and Witch. You may know her as the host of The Witch Wave podcast, or as the author of Waking the Witch: Reflections on Women, Magic, and Power, a book that has become a touchstone for our coven and for contemporary witches everywhere. Pam’s new book is Magic Maker: The Enchanted Path to Creativity.
We talk about Magic Maker (spoiler alert: we LOVED it), comedy, vulnerability, erasing the line between spirituality and creativity, David Bowie, Jinkx Monsoon and much more. Pam says that creativity requires a trust fall into mystery, “We’re dealing with mystery, we’re making things that have never been made before! It’s supposed to be uncomfortable and fucking weird!”
Listen now, transcript below:
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Pam's go-to sonic spell is the EP Migration by Lykanthea
TRANSCRIPT
Amy: If you wanna support the Missing Witches Project, join the Coven and come hang out with us. Or buy our books, new Moon Magic and Missing Witches, and our deck of Oracles The Missing Witches Deck of Oracles. Find everything you need to know@missingwitches.com.
Intro: You aren't being a proper woman, therefore you must be a witch.
Be a witch.
Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch.
Amy: You must be a witch. Hi Coven. And welcome to another episode of The Missing Witches podcast. I'm Amy, and I'm here with Risa… for Samhain this year, this halfway point between autumn, equinox and winter solstice.
We've invited a witch who needs no introduction, but I'm gonna give her one anyway. Pam Grossman is a writer, a curator, a teacher, and of. Course a witch. You may know her as the host of the Witch Wave Podcast, or as the author of Waking The Witch Reflections on Women Magic and Power, a book that has become a touchstone for our coven and for contemporary witches everywhere.
Pam's new book is called Magic Maker, the Enchanted Path to Creativity, and I have honestly been waiting for a book about the intersection of witchcraft and creativity. So thank you, Pam, and welcome, Pam Grossman. Yay. Hi.
Pam: Yay. Hello. I am so thrilled to be here. Thank you so much for having me. It's so great to see you both.
Amy: We are always thrilled to hang out with you whenever we get a chance. So again, thanks for sitting down with us and being in circle with us and celebrating this dark time that is creeping, grieving, grieving, grieving. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm sure most of our listeners are familiar with you and your work, so what is something we don't.
Know about you or something that you want our coven to know about you before we roll into the whole interview deal? Oh my
Pam: goodness. Um, what's coming to mind is that, you know, I'm like a real comedy nerd when I'm not making my podcast. There's only a select few witchy podcasts I listen to, yours is one of them, but usually I'm listening to comedy podcasts.
I'm a die hard SNL fan. I literally haven't missed an episode probably since I was 11 years old. And I follow like the Cummings and goings of the SNL cast, the way some people follow football. Like I'm really deeply into it. And, um. Yeah, I have no desire to be a standup comic or anything like that. Maybe I have a little desire to do like sketch comedy still from, you know, held over from when I was a kid.
But it's just something that gives me deep pleasure. So getting to write about comedy and playfulness a little bit in this book was really, really fun.
Amy: Two follow ups. Number one, how are you ever home on a Saturday night? I don't believe it. Do you like record it with your DDR R? Yes. Okay. It's, it's usually
Pam: a Sunday morning viewing over like coffee or, well, in my case, tea.
Um, and so yeah, it's just like a, a ritual that I have and, and it just gives me so much pleasure. I feel like, I don't know, especially as a New Yorker as well, there's this feeling of. Family almost to whomever the cast is. And so I just, I just love it.
Amy: I was so happy that, um, you brought this up because reading book, I was like, oh, there's comedians, there's musicians, there's writers.
You really cover this whole gamut of what creativity means, and it's so exciting. I would love for you to open with a reading. Um, the section is called Listeners. Um, magic made.
Pam: Okay. Thank you. Here we go. Thanks for asking. I don't think I've actually read out loud from the book since I did the audio book, so I, I appreciate getting to do this with you.
Magic Made, it's my belief that everyone is born with innate creative gifts and that sharing those gifts with the world is our magical mission. Honing the skills we've been granted takes no small amount of labor and cur, let's try that again. Audio book on it. Exactly.
Honing the skills we've been granted takes no small amount of labor and courage, but luckily, we have help on our side. Spirit wants us to make use of these gifts and it will do everything in its power to assist us in the process. Our job as magic makers is to meet spirit. Halfway. We can do this by consciously inviting it to work with us and setting up the best possible circumstances that allow its presence to come through with clarity and ease.
This means making it feel welcome and wanted and opening oneself up to being a gracious receiver of its messages. It means fully committing to the craft of shaping the inspired information that Spirit sends us into a suitable, useful, even beautiful form. And it means staying with the magic no matter what.
Distractions, doubts, and other demons arrive to try to undermine the process. We begin by readying ourselves to co-create something with spirit that wasn't there before. We make believe, we make way, we make fun. We make fools of ourselves. We make magicians of ourselves. We show up and stand tall, trusting that whatever we make will be of use.
Because in the making of it, we keep creative force flowering and flowing. We enter the magic chamber with one arm skyward and one arm earthward poised to pull ragged lightning and raw sparks down from the heavens and form them into fire. We begin.
Amy: And so we begin. There are so many, this is like a page and a half, but there's so many takeaways here.
Like the idea that Spirit wants us to create. So powerful. I mean, there, I read once that public speaking is the number one phobia in North America.
Mm-hmm.
And, you know, we were talking about standup comedy. I, I'm a performer. I've been on stage many, many, many, many, many times. Standup comedy is the most terrifying idea to me because you can't just sort of, you have to have a reaction from the audience.
So you can't get it. But we make fools of ourselves. We make magicians of ourselves. I think this is such an important command or idea or permission slip that if, if, if people's number one phobias is public speaking, that means that they're more afraid of making a fool of themselves, then they are of like dying from a tall height or a snake bite or whatever else people are afraid of.
So how, how do you like. How have you made yourself okay with being a fool? Having fun? Oh my goodness. As a goal?
Pam: Yeah.
What a beautiful question. When I was writing that, I was certainly thinking about I allowing oneself to push past feelings of self-consciousness and self-criticism and, and all of those other things. For sure. And I was thinking about the fool card of tarot because one of the guiding images of Magic Maker is the magician card.
And in the book I really unpack that image and I talk a lot about the creative person or the artist being a bridge between realms and really connecting. The celestial realm with the terrestrial realm, right? And, and you're this kind of conduit as the magician is in tarot between these different realms.
And then you're manifesting force into form when you make something. But in order to do that, if you think about the major arcana, you have to begin. As a fool, and the fool is as, as many people listening, will presumably be aware. The fool isn't just like an idiot or a jester. That's kind of part of the archetype, but it's also about beginner's mind.
It's about having this openness and this. This sense of being okay with taking a leap of faith, a leap into mystery, being okay with not knowing, with not being in total control. And so when I was thinking about this book, and when I think about how I approach a lot of my creative practice, it's about knowing that there's probably going to be some discomfort involved.
You know, we don't know how it's gonna turn out. We can't control everything, even the most skilled among us. And I think there's something really exciting about that and it's certainly something that I'm not always comfortable with. I mean, I can be a real control freak. It's something I've been working on in therapy.
Um, but I have found magic has helped me let go and do a trust fall into mystery. And that has then helped me get out of my own way a little bit more and be more receptive. By extension more productive because I'm not like hyper controlling and hyper criticizing everything I'm doing as I'm making it, or at least that is the goal
Risa: I wanna know.
What the feedback loop was like for you in your magical practice of writing this book and looking at your practice and living your, your work and doing this huge curatorial work that is this book of bringing in so many creative practices, but then having to like live it alongside you tell the story of it through the book, but I wonder what it was like to feel that and how it, how it changed your, your magic.
Pam: Yes. You know, in the book I write that I have had to practice what I priestess, and especially with this book because as I was writing it, I was also using a lot of the techniques I was writing about to create this book or to co-create this book with Spirit. And what was nice about that? Is that I was kind of my own Guinea pig in a way.
You know, my own test subject. And so when the inevitable feelings of insecurity would come up, or feeling daunted or feeling stuck, all those things that can happen during the creative process, I was like, Ooh, well actually this is kind of useful because I can really look at this, study it and write about it.
And there's a whole section in the book about trying to slay your creative demons. So a lot of the demons that I write about perfectionism, the demon of suffering, the demon of scarcity, all of these different demons would show up as I was writing the book and I was like, alright, that's okay then because this happens for most creative people.
And so I can study them and I can then put them into the book. Likewise. Every time. And without exception. And, and, and I don't recommend, or, or rather I don't suggest that you have to do it this way, but for me, writing this book, every single time I sat down to write, I called Magic Circle, I lit up my altar to Mercury.
'cause Mercury is one of the guiding deities of this book. And I. You know, really went into this devotional space of making sure that Spirit knew that whatever came through that day, I knew it was divine, and I knew that I, in turn, was being tasked with making it an offering to the world. Then to close the feedback loop, that is then an offering back up to spirit, right?
And so it was really helpful for me, honestly, to have to use a lot of the techniques in order to write this book to then. Kind of re-prove to myself that they in fact, are effective. And I've used many of these techniques before, but I was very, very diligent about it. And so it was, it was very useful in this case.
And, and look, um, and I know this is way too long of an answer, so I'll just quickly end by saying. In general using magical techniques I have found, has helped bring more ease to my creative work. It's helped quiet my anxiety and it's helped me let go of. Those perfectionist tendencies because I'm like, well, this isn't just about me like this something else is in partnership with me.
I'm not a passive vessel. You know, this book is not just free associated words that came through. There is the human part of shaping and molding and. Adding intention and, and all of that craft and labor. But I was able to really trust that this book was becoming what it needed to be and. Even now that the book is out, and, and of course there are things, and this happens with anybody, I think once they write a book, it's like, ah, I wish I added this, or, I wish I could change that, or you find typos, all the things right.
But it's helped me really lean into, again, that sense of surrender, that this is what, what Spirit wanted this book to be and how it wanted it to come through me. And it, it helps quell some of that anxiousness a bit for me. Not all the way, but, but some of the way, which, which I'm very grateful for.
Amy: I'm, I'm completely obsessed with this section of the book.
I just, um, listeners, if you don't have the book yet, these are the demons, self-doubt, distraction, inertia, scarcity, perfectionism, suffering, judgment. So I mean. I am quite familiar with this group of demons myself, and I imagine that all of our listeners are too. And I think there's this thing in, in capitalism and hegemony that wants us to be strong and powerful and nothing gets to me, and I'm sure.
Everyone in the world looks at you as this powerful and all powerful, even witch. So can you talk a little bit about this, like vulnerability as strength, like why you shepherded these demons into this space? H how, why did you admit that to us?
Pam: First of all, I think most people in the world have no fucking idea who I'm, but to your point, and I, I appreciate the spirit in which it was intended.
Um, you know, I. I always appreciate when other people are vulnerable and honest, especially when my heroes say, oh, no, no, no, no. I really struggled with this, or I felt uncomfortable, or, oh my gosh, that came out totally differently than I thought. Whatever it is, and I'm not saying that I'm anyone's hero, but but in writing this book.
I just wanted to be very, very honest that these are things that I struggle with because I think the more specific, and, ugh, I'm gonna use the word authentic, sorry. But the more authentic we are about our, our insecurities and vulnerabilities. First of all, I think the less power they have over us, if we name them and we take them out into the light and look at them, but also I think it's hopefully a, a generous impulse because I think unless you're a total sociopath, I think everybody, most people are familiar with some, if not all of these demons in, in their life, throughout their life.
Um, so I just wanted to let the reader know that. Of course I battle with these demons all the time and, and I think that's normal. I think it's expected. I think a lot of people stop themselves from making what they're meant to make because they're like, oh, I feel uncomfortable, or, oh, I'm scared. It's like everybody's uncomfortable, everyone's scared.
You know, there's this quote, um, in the book from David Bowie. And this quote has gone around Instagram, and I'm sure several people have seen it already, but it's a quote where he is like, and I'm gonna mangle it, and I should have had it queued up. But it's something to the effect of if you feel like your feet can't quite touch the bottom.
Like, let's say you're like in an ocean of creativity, but you're feeling at sea, you know, and you feel that discomfort and that like, oh shit, I'm unmoored. I don't know what's happening here. I don't know what's coming next. He said, that's exactly how you're supposed to feel. We're supposed to get out of our comfort zone.
We're dealing with mystery. We're making things that have never been made before. It's supposed to be uncomfortable and fucking weird. And so I thought if I wrote about that. It would hopefully help people push through those feelings and keep going because that's what Spirit wants us to do. It wants us to finish, it wants us to make stuff, and that's our job.
You know, the judgment and the criticism and all that shit. That's not our job. We're here to make things.
Amy: You talk kind of a lot about this notion of sacred discomfort in the book, and I think for people who do have fears or whatever, that this is going to really be like something that's gonna allow people to break through this book is gonna be something that's gonna allow people to break through those fears and, and do something to get comfortable with the discomfort of doing something new, trying something that you've never tried before.
Getting up on stage and doing standup comedy, all of all of those things. So again, thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
Pam: Oh, I'm so glad that, that you responded to that section that way. That was certainly the intention. And you know, I've said this before, but. Often I write the books that I need, you know, I don't have all the answers.
And writing a book lets me ask the questions. And so this book is also for me, it's trying to help me feel braver and it's trying to help me push through those demonic moments of doubt and insecurity. And it's, it's to help me keep making the things I'm meant to make, even though. I often feel uncomfortable or feel like I don't totally know what I'm doing, so I'm so happy that that resonates with you.
That makes me feel really happy.
Risa: I wanna talk about erasing the line between spirituality or your spiritual practice and creativity. That line like lit through my body. It's totally something that is core to Amy and i's like friendship and collaboration. We started as we met in a green room at a show.
We started as creative collaborators and we feel like that allowed everything else to happen. 'cause we met in a space where we. Acknowledged each other as creators. And so there's something there that I wanna hear you talk about more. That, that, that, that our spiritual practice can be a creative practice, a play practice.
We can get closer to spirit through creation and that we can like, become creators through our spiritual play and reverence. I, that that value in the book is, I think gonna be so life changing and I wanna hear you talk more about it.
Pam: So for a very long time, I definitely K kept my, my spiritual life and my creative life separate.
There was kind of a bifurcation between them, not even consciously. Um, I was a super creative kid. I love to write poetry and music and perform and make art and. I loved to cast bells and you know, light my candles and do my rituals and my bedroom. It's funny 'cause my bedroom has shown up in every book I've written.
Like it was just such a sacred cauldron for me when I was growing up. But my bedroom really was this space where I could like get super weird and make stuff. I could make art, I could make magic. It was this sense of like very deep play and being in flow and, and feeling like I was in this liminal space where I had total freedom to manifest things.
But it wasn't until I got older, like was a full ass adult when I realized looking back like, oh, I was doing the same shit like I was. S you know, I was entering this magic circle and setting this, you know, sacred space to receive creative force, as I call it. And I was intentionally doing these like symbolic actions to try to communicate with something capital O.
Other, and. And, and, and, and manifest some kind of transformation, whether it was like through the art I was working on or the poetry I was writing, I was doing that because I was trying to make a change in the world, right? Change my emotions, maybe change the emotions of someone who might encounter my poem, even if.
Nobody ever read it. Um, you're trying to manifest like a shift in energy and, and make something new. And same. The same is true when I was casting spells, you know, perhaps a little bit more obviously. And then I realized so many of the artists that I was in love with from the surrealists, like Romeo s Varo, and Leonora Carrington.
To musicians like Tori Amos and David Bowie and Bjork. I mean, the list goes on and on and on that not only was I responding to the subject matter in their work, which, which is often mythological and magical, but that they were using magical techniques, even if they didn't call it that. To generate their work.
Um, I know I keep writing about or bringing up David Bowie and I write about him a lot in the book. He's a, a real creative hero and, and sort of creative ancestor of mine, a chosen creative ancestor of mine. But he had a practice of essentially divination. He, he, he came up with this computer program called The Izer.
He would put in random lyrics and words, and then at the touch of a button, it would kind of like shuffle the cards, if you will. It would mix up all his lyrics and then it would spit out. You know, the, the lyrics in a certain order that is a form of Divinatory practice. You're, you're letting spirit sort of make the choice for you.
You're leaving it up to chance. Um, and certainly he had a lot of other interests in the occult and so on throughout his, his career. Um, same with Romeo s Varo and Leonora Carrington. I grew up loving their work, but it wasn't until I got older and really. Studied them deeply that I was like, oh, they studied Kabbalah and tarot and Ji and witchcraft and you know, they, they, Romeo sro ha ha Varo had a practice of surrounding her canvases with crystals intentionally when she painted.
That's. Magic and that is blending magic and creativity. So one of the goals of the book is not only to share my practice, but to show that so many artists that people admire have pulled on these threads and that it's not a weird thing to do. Like it's actually. Pretty normal, even if people haven't thought of it as magic or witchcraft, that this is, this is part of the human history of making things.
Amy: I have to ask about a specific spell that you did that I have been waiting months and months to have the opportunity to talk to you about. Maybe you know where I'm going with this, but you joined Jinx Monsoon, a a, a sold out Carnegie Hall show on Valenti Valentine's Day, just this year, and y'all performed a live love spell that according to the source I looked at anyway.
Is believed to be the first public spell cast on the Carnegie stage. Um, I was lucky enough that Kenny, shout out Kenny, I love you. I love you so much. Um, sent me the text.
Pam: We love you Kenny.
Amy: Love you. Kenny sent me the, the text of the spell, but I need to know how this came about. How did, did you and Jinx work together on the actual text of the spell?
How, how did this come to be?
Pam: Thank you for asking about that. It's funny, someone else recently asked me like, is there anything I wish I could have put into this book? And, and there's so much I wish I could have put into this book. And one of the things. Is that experience, but it happened after I had pre pretty much been done with the book and it just would've been too much to, to add it.
Um, but I love talking about it because it really is such a great example of putting a lot of these principles into practice. So. To back up a little bit, um, I know Jinx and you both are, are, you know, fans of each other and she's been on your show. She's been on my show a few times. Uh, the On the Witch Wave, my podcast.
And, um, she and I have become friends over the years. I think when she was first getting interested in witchcraft. You can hear her talk about this on my show. I was also on her podcast, uh, which, which I think isn't going on anymore 'cause she's so busy. But she is the busiest. You can, he the busiest. But you can hear her years ago kind of grappling with this idea of like, wait, she feel, she felt like she was a witch, but she also like.
Is very irreverent and she didn't wanna offend anybody and she didn't know if she really could kind of claim this for herself. And, and she was kind of working it out and she and I had a lot of conversations about the fact that like, you can be a witch any witch way you want to be. There is no pope of witchcraft.
And, and having a spirit of what I call reverent irreverence is actually like. Very much part of the tradition of witchcraft. Um, Gerald Gardner, one of the kind of fathers of wca, he has this great line in one of his books where he says, witches are consummate leg pullers. Like witches often have a great sense of humor, right?
And, and there's a little bit of, you know, trickery and playfulness and fun, you know, baked into the archetype. I think anyhow. She and I became friends. I saw her perform many times. We hung out like we, we just really developed this beautiful friendship of mutual respect and, and real appreciation for each other's work.
She started blending witchcraft more into her drag persona. If you watch season, uh, seven, I believe it is, of uh, all Stars, RuPaul's, all Stars. She embodies the archetype of the witch, I think at least four times during that, that run that series. Um, and spoiler alert, she goes on to win. All stars. She becomes, I think the phrase is queen of all Queens, is that right?
Um, and even when she wins and they crown her, she has her scepter and she claims it her, she claims her her win in the name of Heck Tea, goddess of witchcraft. And I was just like, fuck yes. My point is. Jinx, like has fully integrated her witchcraft practice into her drag persona and her drag persona is very expansive.
It's not only about being a witch, but, but it's part, part of the persona. And so I, I've just found it really moving to witness that and to have. Played any part in giving her a permission slip, which PS she did not actually need. But, but if I played any part in helping her be more confident in coming outta the broom closet, like it is an honor of my life.
You know, fast forward she one day, um, FaceTimes me, this is in July of, of last year in 2024. And she says, Hey, I'm gonna be performing at Carnegie Hall. It's my debut show. It's gonna be on Valentine's Day, and I want you to be in the show and I want you to cast a love spell. And. I was so, first of all, so overjoyed for her to be on that legendary stage.
Um, for people who don't follow Jinx as closely as the three of us do, you know, since she has won RuPaul's Drag Race twice, she's gone on to become a Broadway star. I mean, just starring in so many shows as we record this. She's just finishing up her run in O Mary, but she's. Been, you know, doing all this other stuff.
But for her to do her Carnegie Hall debut with a band and the whole thing, you know, that's the stuff of legend. So I was thrilled for her and so honored to be invited to do it. And, um, to answer your question in terms of how we came up with the spell, first of all, let me say that the show was co-written and directed by another hero of mine, Benda la Creme, jinx best friend, incredible drag queen herself.
One of, I mean, to another total hero of mine, and I'd met day a couple times briefly, but for me to be working with her too was just like beyond. They pretty much gave me free license to write the spell I wanted to write to, you know, get the costume I wanted to get. They were, they were basically just like, be fabulous.
They're like, they're, you're never gonna outshine jinx. Like, it's just not possible. So be as grand and magical and beautiful as you possibly can be in terms of your. Costume and so on. But they really trusted me. And so I worked with this incredible, um, costume designer that I know Sherman, uh, Normandy.
Sherwood, excuse me. Um, and designed this incredible costume, which we don't have to get into all those details, but I wrote this spell and the love spell was. Really about, and Jinx did ask sh she, it was important to her that there was some element of integrating the masculine and the feminine. That was one of the things she requested.
Um, which was great by me 'cause we're very much on the same page about that. And, you know, but, but beyond that, I wrote this spell that was really about trying to. Amplify the spirit of love for everyone in that audience, particularly because as, as, as you can imagine, her audience is primarily queer and lots of trans folks are, are in her audience.
And this spell, we didn't know this at the time, we didn't know who was gonna be president when she first invited me. We now know who the president was, is unfortunately, um, the, the. We didn't know that in terms of divine timing that this would happen, that the week of the show is when the president announced that, um, at the Kennedy Center drag was going to be banned.
And lots of other, like terrible things were happening in the news around queer and trans, um, um, issues. And so. I knew that I wanted to fortify this audience and that I wanted to shift that feeling of fear that many of us are feeling into a feeling of absolute love and strength and radiance. And so that's really what the spell was about.
I also knew I wanted it to not just be me performing a spell. I wanted the. Audience to be casting the spell with me. So there are parts of the spell that are call and response. There are parts of the spell, um, where there's like the me and the audience toning together, um, to activate it. And that was important to me too because I wanted that, I wanted for me and everyone there to also be able to say that they sang in Carnegie Hall, even if it was just for one note.
So anyway, it was, um, a, a great honor. It was such a joy to do. I was very nervous about it. I was super stressed about it, but I also knew that I was being called to do this for a reason and that, you know, I, I. I had all these visions of like, what if I set the stage on fire? What if I trip? What if I puke all over myself?
Like my, that's what my lovely brain does when it's nervous and thank goodness I have a wonderful therapist, but I also, my higher frequency self was also like, honey, you're being called by spirit to do this, and it is not about you. This is about honoring jinx. This is about helping everyone in that audience feel less afraid, feel more connected to each other, and to Capital L.
Love. And as soon as I. Shifted into that focus. I was like, I'm good. This is, this is gonna be about all of us. Um, so anyhow, that was a very long answer, but it was a great, great honor. And um, it also happened to be on my birthday. I was born on Valentine's Day, so the best birthday I have ever had.
Amy: I just want you to know that the spell worked.
I read a blog post at, at the time, um, by someone I didn't know, someone I'd never heard of, who I was at the show. A fan of Jinx, obviously, but not at all a, which. They talked about how powerful and loved and held the, like, how amazing the experience was, even from outside of that witchcraft lens. The audience felt it.
I just need you to know that that spell worked.
Pam: That gives me the chills, like my body really responded, um, to, to your words just now. It felt really powerful. And I knew that a lot of folks there probably had never done any witchcraft or never cast a spell before or, or didn't realize they ever had.
'cause I think we all make magic even if we don't call it that. Um, what do we think making a wish on our birthday candles is like when you toss a penny into a fountain, like you're casting a little spell right? But anyhow, um, and you know, I made sure there were some lines in there that were sincere but also funny.
To make sure people knew, like we're laughing, we're having fun. Like again, we're having orgasms. Yeah, reverent a reverence. Yes. There is a line in there about conjuring orgasms for everybody. Um, and that was certainly to cut some of the tension, but also sincere. I do want everyone to have orgasms. That's like a capital G Good in the world.
Right. So, um, I'm so happy that. That you read some of that feedback. I've heard other folks say similar things, and it makes me just so, so grateful. I, I'm so grateful I was able to do that with Jinx and I'm, I will never stop being grateful to her.
Risa: Do you have dreams or visions of other large scale ritual or spell work?
Pam: Hugely. This is one of my. One of my biggest dreams right now yes, is to take that experience. Figure out. I, I was gonna say how to scale it. It was already like scaled, but, you know, to really offer, I, I have big, big visions of offering public ritual for people that also incorporates drag and music and, you know, maybe even comedy like.
I want to do these art rituals and, and I would love to be, you know, the mc hostess of it, um, and, and offer my, my craft to it. But I also don't want it to be just about me. Like I wanna bring in lots of other creative folks. And, and I've started talking to some producers about it and some artists about it.
And one thing I'm trying to manifest with it is. Is the resources for it, because in my mind, you know, there's, there's fucking production value. Okay? There are costumes, there are props. It is opulent as fuck. So let's help me please manifest this. I, I, I really think it would be so fun. I think it would be healing for people and unifying and just in terms of my craft.
And, and my gifts doing more performance and getting to wear costumes and make music and all these things. This is also part of who I am and I, and I feel called to express that side of my magic more these days too.
Amy: I have a kind of specific question. Um, you wrote when in Magic Maker, the enchanted path to creativity out now?
Um, when I write, I listen to specifically selected music that helps me stay in a state of energy flow. Yes. So can you give us like a specific example or examples of the music that you use and maybe we can incorporate some of those songs into our own practices?
Pam: Yes. My number one Tiz Manic album. Which I listened to every single time I sat down to write Magic Maker, and which I often put on at the beginning of a project.
It's like a sonic spell for me. I don't know if it will work for anyone else, but it does for me. And this is an EP by like Canthia. If you are familiar with the Witch wave theme music, that's the song, hand and Eye by Leg, Anthia. Well, that song comes from a five track EP that she put out called Migration.
Um, she's since put out, you know, a full length album that is also so beautiful. But this EP. There's just something about it that when I put it on, it's a signal to me and spirit. It's like me putting the key in the car, right? Like there's, I'm, I'm firing up the ignition. I dunno, I don't know how a car fucking works, but you get the metaphor, you're turning it on.
And so. Yes, and so I listen to that album as I'm beginning, and then it shifts into like other music for sure. Usually when I'm writing and that that album is an exception, usually I can't write to. English language music, my brain gets distracted. So I have a whole giant Spotify. I know Spotify is terrible.
I do need to shift away from it. But I do have a big Spotify playlist that is filled with music that I find sacred that either doesn't have words or it's not in English. Um, so it doesn't distract my brain. Like Tia's music does have English words. For some reason, it just really works for me. It's so beautiful.
Amy: She's a fucking genius. There's someone in the chat saying they picked up that EP because of the interview that show. Yes. I'm glad. Glad you, glad the.
Pam: She's something. I mean, and ps that's just something she does sometimes. She also is like a professor at Columbia, and she is from South Asian. She's of South Asian descent, but she is a scholar of Roman ancient history.
Like she's just like a, a wild polymath genius of a person. Um, her, her newest album is. You know, draws more on like Sanskrit than a little bit more on her ancestral lineage. It is also so beautiful. I'm just the biggest fan of hers.
Amy: What are you doing for Saw wind? What are you doing for Halloween? Do you, do you see a Halloween party is different than a saw wind party?
Pam: I don't know what I'm doing for Halloween quite yet. I know that for Saan. Um, on November 1st, I'm actually doing a, an event for the book. Um, my husband and I have a little house upstate now.
Uh, we, we still are renters here in Brooklyn, but we, we bought a little house upstate a few years ago and we have a really nice, magical community that I've found. And one of the people I've become dear friends with is a woman named Allison Ward, which is such a magical name. And she owns a shop called Madam Fortuna.
It's like you would both love it. It's vintage clothes and beautiful objects and furniture and jewelry, and she has the best taste like she is my jewelry and clothing whisperer. Now it's very dangerous 'cause she has such good taste. Um. She just knows my style and taste, which is very specific. So she often finds me beautiful things.
Anyway, she's become a dear friend and she has offered to co-host, uh, a book party for me. So we're gonna do some ritual forsen. We're gonna build a little ancestor altar. I think I'm gonna call in some creative ancestors, um, on that night. And so that'll be special. That's at Madam Fortuna on November 1st.
Um. Then in terms of my own private like celebration, to be honest, I rarely go to Halloween parties anymore as I imagine it is for you both. October's, like my busy season for work. It's fun, sacred work, but it is my job and so I often keep days free because I sometimes get last minute requests for, for this or that.
Um, but I. Also am by the time I get to Halloween, quite tired from working so much during October that usually Matt and I, my, my husband and I will just kind of like stay in and watch horror movies and eat candy like everybody else.
Amy: I love
Pam: it.
Amy: Um, as we approach the end of our hour, we know how busy you are.
Um, so we don't wanna keep you terribly long. But pa it's, for me, it's page 3 27. Okay. Can you close us out? Um, this section is a magician, imagines, it's this little italic piece.
Intro: Oh, yes. Okay.
Amy: When I first, when I first got the book, whenever I get a book, I just do like a sort of.
You
know, like a, a Biblio man.
And, and this, I, I posted it immediately as soon as I got this book because I was like, this is. The mantra that I want and, and for all of us to have in our hearts. So if you could read it to us and our coven and our listeners, and hopefully, hopefully we can really absorb it. This is of course, from Magic Maker, the Enchanted Path to Creativity by Pam Grossman out now.
Pam: Yes. Thank you so much. And this is sort of, um, kind of the final blessing of the book and I'll just read those four lines. Here you go. I.
May you know your own limitlessness. May you be guided by the gods of imagination. May your creations be portals for enchantment. May your life be a love spell cast in all realms. So motive B, and so it is.
Risa: And blessed. Fucking be
Amy: Blessed be. I wanna thank you for Magic Maker. The book is incredible also for waking the Witch. Also for witch. We've also for hanging out with us today. Also, also, also, also, also, also, just so much gratitude. Um, we love you.
Pam: Yeah, we love you so much. I love you both so much. I continue to be such an admirer of your work, and people are constantly asking me about other witchy podcasts that I love, and yours is the podcast I always recommend at the top of that list.
Oh yeah. Because what you craft is done with such love, such intellectual rigor and research, which as. Nerd Witches, we all appreciate. And, um, you just have such big, beautiful, radiant, expansive hearts. So I am so grateful to you both for helping me usher in magic maker, and for having this conversation and for just making the magic that you both make.
So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Mm.
Risa: We're both teary now. It's such an honor. Yeah, it's reading your book is just like being immersed in a world of brilliant research, so to hear that from you really, really means a lot. Yeah. We love you. Happy saw Love. Love you. Happy. Saw everybody. Happy saw win,
Amy: and blessed fucking bee.
Intro: You weren't being a proper woman. Therefore, you must be a witch.
Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. A witch.
You must
be a witch. Witch. As leaves and empires fall around me, fall around, fall around me, fall around, fall around me as leaves and empire.
Around me, around fall around me, fall around me. I.
For the spirit, all things for the magic that it brings, for the seasons change, and so.
Amy: If you wanna support the Missing Witches Project, join the Cove and come hang out with us. Or buy our books, new Moon Magic and Missing Witches, and our deck of Oracles the Missing Witches Deck of Oracles. Find everything you need to know@missingwitches.com.
