Today we're joined by two Earth Angels, Christopher Marmolejo and Edgar Fabian Frias to talk about Art as Magic and as a healing practice, boundaries, divination, opening portals of possibility, bravery, and inner fortitude. This conversation is a nervous system reset - take a deep breath, slow down, rediscover your sense of self, commune with the Divine, and bear witness as unjust systems decay.
Listen Now, Transcript Below
REMINDER:
This episode is part of our FIFTH annual REPARATIONS FUNDRAISER!!
As always, Risa and Amy will be contributing our profits for the month of May to support the Native Women’s Shelter of Montreal.
Here's a quick rundown of how our fundraiser works:
1. Make a donation of $10 or more to your local Native Women’s Shelter or Indigenous Support Org or DONATE to the Native Women’s Shelter of Montreal.
2. Take a screen shot of your receipt and email it to missingwitches@gmail.com with the subject line: REPARATION
3. Be entered to win one of over TWENTY fabulous prizes (full 2025 list HERE) donated by luminaries of the Witch community. For every $10, you’ll get one entry into the draw for these prizes. So if you donate $50, you’ll get five entries, and so on.
4. Automatically receive coupon codes for a discount from TWO of our favourite Witchy Businesses: HAUS WITCH in Salem, and Michelle Pajak-Reynolds Jewelry!!!
Looking for inspiration? Edgar suggests donating to Bay Area Indian Two Spirits AKA BAAITS. Christopher suggests donating to the Coalition to Stop Violence Against Native Women.
Christopher Marmolejo, MA, is a brown, queer, And trans writer, diviner, & educator. They use divination to promote a literacy of liberation.
They are the author of Red Tarot: A Decolonial Guide To Divinatory Literacy, published By North Atlantic Books.
They Were Born And Raised In San Bernardino, California, In Community With The Serrano People Of The Pines, The Yuhaaviatam Clan Of The San Manuel Nation.
As a trained educator focused on cultivating classrooms of emancipatory possibility, they work with students around the world to plant and nurture the seed of a divinatory practice, finely weaving tarot, astrology, & curanderismo with decolonial, queer epistemologies & critical, feminist pedagogies.
Order Red Tarot
Get The Red Tarot Audiobook
Edgar Fabián Frías is a multidisciplinary artist, psychotherapist, educator, curator, and brujx based in Los Angeles. With a passion for breaking boundaries and creating new forms of knowledge, Frías blends diverse artistic disciplines to produce thought-provoking and immersive works of art that transcend conventional categories. Their oeuvre encompasses installation, photography, video art, sound, sculpture, printed textiles, GIFs, ritual, performance, social practice, and community organizing, reflecting their commitment to experimentation and innovation.
Frías' work explores themes of resistance, resiliency, and radical imagination in the face of colonization, environmental racism, and other contemporary issues. Drawing on Indigenous Futurism, spirituality, play, pedagogy, animism, witchcraft, and queer aesthetics, Frías offers a unique perspective on the complexities of modern society. Through their art, they bridge the gap between the traditional and the contemporary and create spaces for contemplation and transformation.
As a nonbinary, Wixárika, and Latinx artist whose family hails from Mexico, Frías brings a rich and diverse background to their practices. They hold dual BA degrees in Psychology and Studio Art from UC, Riverside, and an MA in Clinical Mental Health Counseling with a focus on Interpersonal Neurobiology and Somatic Psychotherapy from Portland State University. In 2022, they completed an MFA in Art Practice at UC Berkeley. They are currently working as Special Faculty in Performance at CalArts.
Frías' work has been exhibited internationally, including at prestigious venues such as the Vincent Price Art Museum, Institute of Contemporary Art San Francisco, Berkeley Art Museum and Pacific Film Archive, Oregon Contemporary, MOCA Jacksonville, Project Space Festival Juárez, and ArtBo. Their art, tarot, and multidisciplinary practices have also been featured in numerous publications, including Cosmopolitan, Taschen, ELLE UK, Bustle, Nylon, Los Angeles Times, Slate, CVLT Nation, Terremoto, and Hyperallergic, among others.
Check out Edgar's podcast Your Art Is A Spell
TRANSCRIPT
intro: [00:00:00] You aren't being a proper woman. Therefore, you must be a witch. Be a witch. Witch. Witch. A witch. Witch. A witch. A witch.
Amy: Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Missing Witches podcast. I am Amy, and I wanna start with a reminder that this episode is part of our fifth annual Missing Witches reparations fundraiser.
We recognize that witches and new age practitioners have two often benefited from an extractive relationship with indigenous people, their knowledge, their cultures, and of course the land. So every year we at missing witches and our coven and our extended witch community spend the month of May joyfully, happily, excitedly raising money for indigenous support orgs, especially the native women's shelter of Montreal Brisa.
And I pay forward our profits for the month of May to the native women's shelter of Montreal. [00:01:00] And we gather together with magical friends like Christopher and Edgar to spotlight indigenous voices through conversations like this one. And we invite you, the listener, to join in on this reparations movement.
Here is a quick rundown of how our fundraiser works. One, make a donation of $10 or more to your local native women's shelter or indigenous support org, or donate to the native women's shelter of Montreal. Two. Take a screenshot of your receipt and email it to Missing witches@gmail.com with the subject line reparation.
Three. Be entered to win one of more than 20 fabulous prizes. The full list is on our website. Donated by luminaries of the witch community. People like Jinx Monsoon, Amanda Yates Garcia, uh, Sarah Steiner from Moon Studio, Renee Sills from Embodied Astrology. Really, really glorious, [00:02:00] glorious witches. And for every $10 you get one entry.
So like if you donate $50, you get five entries, a hundred dollars is 10 entries and so on. And four. Every donor will automatically receive coupon codes for a discount from two this year. Two of our favorite witchy businesses, house Witch in Salem, and Michelle Payjack Reynolds Jewelry Today, I admit I am a bit of a sacred mess, so I am so happy to be joined by two of the most beautiful, peaceful, calming influences that I know.
Christopher and Edgar Fabian Free. Thank you so much for helping me to calm my shattered nerves and my.
Edgar: Thank you for showing up in your sacred mess. Yes, yes. It's [00:03:00] giving
Christopher: like poppy, like I feel like you're like a field of poppies, like rising and blooming to the bright horizon. So I love it.
Amy: I appreciate that. But I might need to harvest some of those poppies for a little, uh, a little opioid.
So happy to get the two of you in a room together. There is so much intersection between y'all's work, so many 10 girls that I think are going to bear so much fruit. And you've both been on the podcast many times, but for new listeners, for forgetful people, um, let's start with Edgar. Who are you? Who are you today?
What are you working on? What's going on, Edgar?
Edgar: Yeah, well, so, so happy to be back on this podcast and to be a part of this incredible movement and conversation, and I. I am Edgar Fabian. My [00:04:00] family is from Mexico. I am Ika and I am currently living on Tonga land, also known as Los Angeles. And I am a multihyphenate, multidimensional, mutant person, being expansive Angel.
I exist in many realms. Um, I exist. Digitally, my avatar is all over the place. And also, um, I'm a psychotherapist. I have a private practice where I work mostly with folks who are highly sensitive, neurodiverse uh, gender expansive, queer, trans. And I also, um, am an artist and I create work, uh, that gets shown all over the world in many different ways.
I do like installation, work performance, video art. Digital work as well. And um, I'm also a or witch and, um, I have definitely cast spells, um, in books on skyscrapers. And I even have some spells of mine that were taken up to [00:05:00] the moon last year, which was like a really big moment in my career. And yeah, just really honored to be here and.
To be able to like, share about our intersecting practices and also our values and, uh, what we're communing with at this moment, which is such an fraught, intense moment in our world right now.
Amy: It is. It really is. And another expansive angel bringing the, the light. Christopher, who are you today? How are you?
What are you doing? What have you been doing?
Christopher: Gosh, my gosh. I am, I am just thrilled to be again and thrilled to be back on the pod for this project. Honored to be here, honored to be sitting and meeting with you. Edgar, I've been such a fan of your work for so long, and, and I'm just like a little. You know, like, shoot, shooting up like myself with the work in, into some of these fields.
And it's just an honor to be invited back. Um, I am an author, um, a [00:06:00] teacher, a student. I center tarot as a sort of archive or codex for decolonization and. Queerness and queer theory and, um, you know, anti-racism and womanism and I lecture and, um, I'm thinking of, uh, Solange is like, can I hold a mic interlude?
Like there's too many parts. Too many spaces. Too many manifestations. Too many lines. Too many curves. Too many troubles. Too many journeys. Too many mountains. Too many rivers. So many.
Amy: I'm both amazing introductions. Thank you. Thank you both fast so much. So last week I was talking to Patty Raic and she had like an X-Files poster behind her. If you all remember, maybe I'm showing my age, but it was a very popular show called the X-Files. Anyway, Patty's poster said the tagline from that show, which was, I want to believe.
[00:07:00] And as I was, as I was sitting there looking at it, I thought, what a fruitful question. So I, uh, let's start with Edgar. Edgar. What do you wanna believe?
Edgar: Hmm. Wow. I'm like getting chills just hearing that question. Yeah. I want to believe that we're returning to. The sacred Center that we are communing, that we are returning back to a place where we acknowledge the life and consciousness of all beings on this planet.
That we are exiting the materialist paradigm and that we are acknowledging the interrelatedness. And the interspecies communion that is so possible for us to experience on this planet. And we're doing that in the midst of the decaying, patriarchal, you know, white supremacist system as it like violently.
You know, throws [00:08:00] its body around and makes a mess of itself. And we have to witness the tantrum and be here as the death doulas that we are to witness its transition. And I know a lot of us, we are in the midst of so much pain and fear. And also I want to believe in the rejoicing and the celebration that's to come as we allow these systems to pass.
And also. Be the doulas to bring in so much that's been wanting to come through. So much that is coming through, and I feel like so many of us as witches, as people, we've been coming together through these different platforms and spaces to support us in stepping into this re-emerging reality that will reconnect us to our indigenous sovereignty and also to our ways of being that.
We need so badly on this planet to come back to, and I really feel that [00:09:00] returning. I believe in it so much and it is what keeps me going. I feel like the Web of Witches that I'm a part of is what keeps me grounded and keeps me showing up every day to do the work that I do, and also gives me hope in the midst of all the noise and all the chaos that this dying system is trying to throw in front of us.
Amy: You bring so much hope to so many people just with your existence, and I, I wanna thank you for reminding us that these systems are decaying. Mm-hmm. It feels like the, the last surge. So we're, we're right in the hurricane right now, but these systems are decaying. Thank you for that hopeful message. Edgar.
Christopher, question. What, what do you wanna believe Christopher?
Christopher: Hmm. I wanna believe that love is coming for us. All that love is on [00:10:00] its way, that love is on its way. That, that, I just feel such a deep, um, empathy and like, like the, the grief of the loneliness and the sorrow and the loss that so many souls have to navigate and endure.
And I just, and including my own journey and that love is on the horizon, I think of, um, I just hear like, you gotta believe like from Mary j Blige, or I still believe Remix by Mariah. You know what I mean? Like these notions of as fragile as hope even is. Um. As hard as it is, it's damn resilient, you know, and it just has this Phoenix capacity to like show up again.
You know? It's like I'm okay. I'm still alive here. Okay, then that failed or that was disappointed or I didn't expect that to happen, but damn it, I'm still here and there's [00:11:00] still a reason to hope. There's still, again, po the possibility of love. I just feel like I just have to believe that love is on its way.
Amy: You mentioned a couple songs, but you made me think of, um, one of my favorite songs, um, Crosby, stills, Ash and Young, a song called Carry On. Mm. It's so hopeful. And there's this one Harmony Break, so it's like four voices and the lyrics are Carry on Love is coming to us all, and I think that that's, that's an amazing message for everyone, our listeners, our relations.
Carry on. Keep going. Love is coming. Love is coming. Love is coming. I can just, I'm just gonna repeat that in my head every time. Mm-hmm. I, I need a boost. Um, Edgar, I'm so happy that you started a podcast. I am so happy that you started a podcast and [00:12:00] it is fantastic. Listeners, if you have not yet checked out Art, your Art is a spell, please, please.
I'll wait till the end of this missing witches episode and then head over,
Christopher: head over to another
Amy: podcast. But I wanna talk about this notion of art as a spell, and I'm gonna come back to you, Edgar. But Christopher, can we ground ourselves? In this topic from your book, I know obviously tarot is a visual art.
Christopher: Mm-hmm.
Amy: Um, so there's, there's a lot that comes up, but there's so much in your book about art artists, the process of decolonizing as artists. So I was wondering if you would read a little section. I picked it out already, listeners, page 2 78. If you're reading along with your copy of Red Tarot by Christopher Marjo, it's page 2 78.
Thank
Christopher: [00:13:00] you. And I just wanna say if you would like to continue hear me reading, you know, I do do the audio book version of Red Tarot, just saying, but yes, you for the invitation, I'd be honored. Um, so this is from the seven of Wands. The seven of wands is for any artist who wants uninhibited unrestrained cultural terrain.
This means the artist's work must inherently challenge the institutionalized systems of domination. These systems seek to shut down the potential for the artist's. Creative self-realization for such systems are always attempting to limit co-opt and exploit the artist and their art. It's difficult for anyone operating in the cultural marketplace to defend against art that seeks to exert the real entanglements within the capitalist corporate machine, threaten the virtue, the soul of the artist.
The capitalist formation of the American project is predicated upon an isolating individualism, the superficial seduction of immediate recognition and some measure of attention may be offered in a turn that still marginalizes and sets apart. None of us are free [00:14:00] from the struggle against a profound internalized colonization that has a primary apparatus in the media, but the seven of wand stands against this threat to the artist and their work.
The seven of wands necessarily champions the free moving spirit that creatively, that creates provocatively and openly. They are vigilant in their defense of difference. Artists, readers, writers must be literate enough to break the hold of colonizing representations. Their work will necessarily provoke.
Amy: Edgar, doesn't it sound like you could've written that?
Edgar: Oh my gosh. I, you know, I thank you for believing that I could be such a brilliant writer.
Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. Those words, it's so powerful and yeah. Uh, I'm just like getting chills thinking about this moment we're in and the role of the artist and what we're here to really bring in to the world. And I think you really just named it so potently, so poetically that [00:15:00] as artists it is, uh, such a responsibility to be able to imagine, to see, to feel into what's.
Coming. What's possible, what we hold together, and that was one of the reasons I really felt called to start this podcast, is I have witnessed the power of art in my own life as well, and in the life of so many people. And its ability to transform not only in like your interior sense of self, but also the world.
Like I've seen so much magic happen and really wanting to remind people of the power that we hold within to push up against these systems and to transcend these systems and to really use our art as a catalyst, a guide, uh, and also as a trickster, as a way to, um, smuggle and intercept. And to create openings of possibility.
And I think it was coming at a time where I [00:16:00] also was making a big decision of leaving social media and you know, leaving Instagram and trying to reorganize my own life to stay connected and to build connections with people. And I've been really inspired by the connections that I've been making through my podcast and through my newsletter.
And. Seeing that we don't need these mega corporations to stay connected and that there are other ways, and that there is like a time of like reskilling where we're all going to need to return back to other ways of engaging with one another because we've all been so easily drawn into these spaces that are in many ways becoming so unsafe for our communities.
And I think what's so unfortunate is that we've all. Really learned, myself included, to rely on these spaces to stay connected. And it is a big, um, shift that is happening and I feel like I want to just really name, um, Amelia Ruby from the Off the Grid podcast. I [00:17:00] was just on her podcast this last week and she's someone who's really championing artists and visionaries.
Uh, to leave social media and to create our own networks. And I do believe that this is going to become more and more of something that we're gonna be called to do. And I think, obviously it makes so much sense for this to be happening during the year of the hermit and also during these times where these systems are really showing who they are, who they've always been in many ways.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christopher: Can I just say like, I, I love that I saw you post about your leaving Instagram and, and these platforms and, um, I, I need to just fully make that shift for me. It's like a, you know, when the, uh, a leaf is like, like, needs to be cut from the tree 'cause it's like brown and fray, it just like, it's like dead already.
Um, and. I just am so inspired by that because, I mean, likewise, I pour my energy elsewhere. Do you know what I mean? Like, I definitely center and seek to [00:18:00] cultivate space elsewhere. And like you're saying, the different scale that arises within. And then also, um, this, the emergence of this podcast and just like the, that, I mean, I was listening to you last year on, on, on the podcast, you know, and.
The sense of, again, scale, like the longevity of the work, like the different sense of training and the impact and legacy of creating work that can endure, which, um, I think of course like needs to be on platforms that we own and that we cultivate because, you know, they can pull the plug on any day and you don't own what's, you're the content that you're producing there, but you're also being driven by capitalism, by market logic.
Do you know what I mean? In order to shape your voice in a particular way or in order to get certain engagement, and then how does that affect the integrity of what you want to produce as an artist? When you're also like tr like we are so inundated with being [00:19:00] instantly validated, you know, by likes and views and all these things, and so that's.
Powerful.
Edgar: Yeah. And I just really wanna name that it's, I have so much compassion for anyone navigating this because I know that how challenging it is to build something on a platform that all of a sudden doesn't feel safe. And to also not be sure what it looks like to step away. And also, you know, you named so beautifully how we have all been shaped.
To really be, um, needing those like dopamine rushes, right? And um, that is something that we have to like, it's almost like a big, I see, like a big chasm to like jump past, to be able to then like trust into the seedlings that you put into the earth knowing that there is like a. Different scale that goes beyond the like quick 24 hour post cycle, right?
That there is like another way of bringing people together that is like more intentional, maybe takes some more time. And, um, I really want to just emphasize that I'm [00:20:00] really critical of the systems. I'm not critical of how people use. These social media platforms. 'cause I know that we all have to navigate what it means to be in relationship with these places and, uh, but I really do feel like the onus has to be on these systems for shaping people in a certain way and also using these tactics that you're naming mm-hmm.
Are not really in alignment with a lot of our values.
Christopher: Mm-hmm. I'm like, thank you. I, so hearing that also, I've been thinking, um, like, you know, we, I read from the seven of Wands, but the seven of Pinnacles as well, which is Taurus, which is, you know, this, this farm worker, this land worker, this like person who works the earth and is, um.
Head is over their hoe or their tool or what have you, and they're just like looking at the thing growing, looking at how much is there, you know, in this contemplative space. And again, that notion like, um, I. I think that is, [00:21:00] that is a card rolled by Saturn and we're leaving the six of Pentacles, which is rolled by the moon.
And for me, the moon is like the flowers that bloom each season. And there's just such a different pace. But like the seven Wands, vision and scale is like, how do I, how do I get a harvest that feeds a whole community for generations to come? You know? And they don't walk, they're not walking away from the work either.
Like, I think it's some, like, they're not just like uprooting everything. They're, they're able to like. Sit with a sense of like, this hasn't come into bloom yet. Like, I don't have the avocados I need for my guacamole yet, but like, right. But it's growing, you know what I mean? And like, let me take a, let me take as long as I, is, it, it needs for, um, for the art to find its audience or for the vision to come into place for the discography to develop, for, you know, the range to be, to be developed and.
I just think there's so much wisdom in that card, and I always think of that card as like a porch people kind of card. [00:22:00] You know, myself,
Amy: porch people. But we definitely, we have been led to believe that, um. We have to have social media or we will perish, you know? And, and that's very real. I know that like publishing companies, filmmakers, you know, uh, record labels are going and seeing how many followers you have before they're making a deal with you, which obviously, you know, I'm a woman of a certain age and I remember when things didn't operate that way at all.
So I'm wondering like if both of you could talk about like, if, is there a meeting place between like. Bravery, especially for people who exist in, in marginalized communities. Bravery, safety, prosperity. What, what? How do we find an intersecting point between especially bravery and safety?
Edgar: Hmm hmm.[00:23:00]
I think it's something that, you know, we don't have to feel rushed. In finding it, it's something that we can start to cultivate and make small steps to develop. I think that there can be maybe a feeling, especially because, you know, I know for myself when I first started learning about like the different changes that were happening on Instagram or, um, the ways that certain communities or friends of mine have been, like either shadow banned or, um, you know, thrown off the platform and lost all their work.
Like I think there was a. I have to make a decision really quickly. Um, and at the same time, um, you know, as you're naming, um, Chris, there's like different like timeframes that we could work within and I think it's really important to, um, name that you can be really intentional. You could take small steps, you could always return, and, um, I feel like.
If there are [00:24:00] ways that we can iterate or try things out, experiment and not feel like you have to just like all of a sudden make a really big decision that's gonna like destabilize all your life, right? That you could make a small choice and see what happens from that small choice and slowly start to build that capacity or that resiliency to be able to then make larger choices.
And I think that's also one of the things that I've been really sitting with in my time away from social media is. That, um, especially, and this is something I I wanted to bring into this conversation is, um, I feel like with divination work, um, divination works in many different timelines and I do feel like we need space for divination to like emerge.
Like whether it's like stories or visions or. Sensations. They come in moments of like quiet of contemplation, of boredom, of repetitive motions. And these are things that I feel like, um, I. It can be really hard to do [00:25:00] when you're like constantly feeling like you have to go grab your phone or constantly feeling like you have to go check your email.
And I'm saying this as someone that really loves the space of divination and has really noticed how my like sense of self has been like co-op. Did by these like machines and like little by little I'm like finding less of those moments and really wanting more of this space to exist with different timelines.
And so I feel like knowing that time can expand, it can collapse and that we could take little moments to make big decisions or make small decisions. Like there's so much possibility within time. And I do feel like that's one of the benefits of stepping away is that you get to rekindle that relationship with time in a very different.
Fashion. And so just wanna invite that for people. If you're feeling like, oh, I could never get off social media 'cause I, I would perish, which I totally know that feeling. Mm-hmm. Um, just see what it would be like to have it off for a day or for a few hours or to make a little small decision. 'cause I, I don't want it to [00:26:00] feel like it's either all, all or nothing.
'cause I'm still on there. I still posts sometimes, so it's not mm-hmm. I'm also in that place where I'm trying to renegotiate that relationship.
Christopher: Mm-hmm. It's so, I'm just so drawn in to listening, listening to you speak, and I'm so glad you have a podcast, Edgar. 'cause I just need to like, go in deep dive. Um, I, I, yeah, I agree.
Um, I think that there's also having multiple containers and existing, like, let me start it on my blog, on my website or something, you know what I mean? And like, have that going concurrently or, I mean, I think we all do, but like building a newsletter, you know, where that's like your audience, like they're.
Like, at least I know it goes to everyone who subscribes, like when I make a post there. Whereas like you can follow me on Instagram and never see me again, which is. Probably the case, you know, um, I, the bravery piece is interesting. 'cause for me that is so much like about embodiment, you know, again, very seven of wands like that.
It's, so, [00:27:00] when you're visibly queer or transgressive, um, it's taken me like, I, I was hiding. Like, I just, I couldn't handle that at such an early age, you know what I mean? Against everyone else. It's like, I, I was red queer before I. Had any awareness. Like it was just me. Like, you know what I mean? I was just being me.
Mm-hmm. And everyone was like, what are you doing? You know what I mean? Like how, how dare you. And that was so threatening. And so it did take, um, inner fortitude. It did take somewhat of like, like, like you're saying, boundary and capacity work, um, protection, which I think boundaries are, are about right.
Like just to come to have that inner fortification to. Be inspired and, and, and develop my language and my words and my ability to like, like, why are you so obsessed with me? Like to have clap backs or to have like something to counter, you know what I mean? In this, in these ways that people try and police us with all these various bullshits to just keep us, um, silent and [00:28:00] complacent and docile and conforming.
And I find that like the more. Brave, I become in, in being authentic like Authe. I feel authenticity is a part of it. Um, it emboldens my sense of bravery and that actually makes me feel more safe, you know, and it can look in certain ways. Like I, I try and push the line with my writing as I just kind of named about being provoking.
Like not to like provoke for just the sake of it, but like the sense of. You know, I want to shed some blood in my pages. Like I want there to be, you know, like that is where I'm like, wow, I, I put a lot in that. Or like, I revealed a lot in that. And that is just tantalizing and exciting to me in, in like saying something that I know other people would have a hard time articulating for themselves or whatnot.
It's very freeing to me. And, um, but on the other end, it's like I don't share, I've never been one to share on social media like. My life or [00:29:00] like my day or like selfie Your breakfast. Yeah. Things like that. Like I just, I just don't have that, like, that just doesn't go through my mind like that, you know what I mean?
And I am also very private in that way. Like where I just don't like it. Just, that makes me feel more unsafe. So, but it doesn't feel authentic either. You know, um, 'cause I do love seeing what people eat as well. You know, like what Mark
Amy: doesn't, we don't do. It doesn't mean that you can't, just, like Andrew was saying, you no judgment.
Right. How do you, and this question goes to both of you. You use the phrase Christopher Inner Fortitude, and I wanna know how I. Our listeners, um, what, like, what advice do you both have for cultivating that inner fortitude? I mean, you both, we talk a lot about how gentle does not mean weak, and I think that both of you are so exemplary of that idea.
There's such a [00:30:00] strength, but also such a gentleness to both of you. Um, so how, how do I, and how do you cultivate that inner fortitude?
Christopher: Hmm,
Hmm. I, um, the first thing that's coming to mind for me is, is forgiveness. Ooh. Is really forgiveness for the mistakes that we've made in the past for the shame that has been passed down to us. Um, fortitude, of course we can think of as like a spine or a column or this thing that allows you to not crumble.
Right. And of course, shame and mistakes and self-loathing. Um, this punishing voice, this like carceral mindset, um, has us crumble. Where I also think like that, having that spine, like I, I, I thank my chiropractor because he just increased my spine mobility and my [00:31:00] spine helps so much that it's like having a strong spine means having a flexible spine means being able to attend to where.
There's a, like where it's stuck, you know, and how to set it back in place and not, um, not be punishing. And so I think on the other side of that is like just really a lot of forgiveness for no, like giving yourself, um, an understanding that progress is progress and that we're not going for perfection, or you don't have to be, you know, this.
Paragon of virtue 24 7, but that you are human and that you are flawed and that you have been hurt and that you're healing and that you have capacity for change and transformation. And that's always gonna be a, a learning curve. And that like the mistakes can be evidentiary of your commitment to progress and having, I think just like a paradigm shift around.
W when you make a mistake or you're like, damnit, I, in whatever way I am not in the, [00:32:00] not in two addicts as well, but like people recovering, but like, I relapse in this thing. Or I made, I did the thing I know I shouldn't have done or I don't wanna do, or, you know what I mean? But it's like, okay, you, that's just like, hold that but without being punishing.
You know what I mean? Hold that with an accountability and an integrity to just improve a little bit more the next time. And um, again, I think that type of like self-acceptance. You know, without shame, um, without carceral gives you so much greater capacity and resiliency. I.
Amy: My father was not a, a particularly gentle man, but I remember one time as an adult, I went to him and I said, I dad, I made a big mistake.
I don't even remember what the mistake was that, and keep that in mind too, listeners, like it's years later, and I don't even remember what that huge life shattering mistake that I had made was. But he said to me. You made a mistake, so you're human. [00:33:00] And my father has passed now, but that voice comes to me again and again, and again and again.
And Edgar like, your work is alien and divine, but so human. There's so much humanity in your work. How do you cultivate your inner fortitude?
Edgar: I, you know, and I was really struck by what you were sharing, Christopher, of like feeling like just by existing people come up to you and say, how dare you? You know?
And I think, you know, you bringing up the spine, I can really, I really feel like my relationship to my ancestors, and when I say ancestors, I mean both like my ika and. Ancestors as well as my queer and trans ancestors, as well as like the visionary, artistic weirdo lines that I'm a part of. And I feel like a big part of my own healing.
Um, and I do feel like forgiveness is really in this too. Um, is. [00:34:00] Really healing this part of me that felt that because I was different, I didn't belong and really feeling like because I'm different I do belong. And knowing that there are so many of us that are weirdos, we're highly sensitive. We don't fit in.
We might be like transgressive in many different ways. And knowing that there is like a community of us that has found each other, that we've been brought to each other. And I do feel, you know, the webs. Both like the digital as well as the etheric and the energetic, like finding ways to like have us all like come back together and really feeling that like that inner fortitude comes from knowing that I'm not alone.
That even if I am the one like weird gender expansive person that like might be in a room. I'm not walking into that space by myself. And I really do feel that in my spine. 'cause I feel like that spine is such a deep connection to the earth and to the ancestors. And [00:35:00] I just wanna say that to anyone out there who does feel like they're audacious just for existing like.
You are not alone. You're a part of a huge community and you might not see them in your physical realm, but they are there in this spiritual energetic realm. And you will also find us in the physical realm. If you know how to look for us or if you ask for us to come, we will come.
Christopher: Who can I, I'll add something to that.
I just love please hearing you say that I, I drew a card yesterday and it was Holy Grandmother of the Weave. You know, and it's this beautiful big spider, you know, on the card. And, um, again, just kind of going back, like adding again, divination to that sense, which I hear again in the spiritual realm and etheric realm, like, um, me having a, for like di divination has fortified me so much, like cultivating that practice, having a daily poll practice.
Has allowed me to feel not alone. ESP at times when my life was falling [00:36:00] apart, at times when I was so lost. Like to really like the communication aspect of divination, like in the meaning of the word, like to commune with the divine has helped me immensely feel like there's a being who has a greater perspective or who knows how to, who knows that.
There's redemption from all the pain and suffering that I've experienced and that we've all experienced, and we experience that it's not for nothing or that that can be used to facilitate the increase of light and of healing. Like that. There's a genius operating beyond my own existence, but that I can, that I can commune with every morning.
So I just wanted to say that. Yeah.
Edgar: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that.
Amy: Communing with the divine is something that I think all witches are, are at very least interested in pursuing as a goal, whether or not we feel like we've reached that. Mm-hmm. But I definitely, once again, like both of you have such a, a divinity that just like radiates out of you.[00:37:00]
But it's wonderful to think that, you know, a little human like me might be able to reach that.
Christopher, I've asked you this before, so I'm gonna start with Edgar. Edgar, if you could, if it feels comfortable for you to close your eyes and imagine what a re indigenized world would look like, can you describe a re indigenized world from the divinity of your imagination?
Christopher: Mm-hmm.
Edgar: Yeah, the first thing I saw was like everyone throwing away their clocks.
Amy: Let's say it again. We don't have to rush. That's a capitalist lie. We don't have to rush. Yeah. So we've thrown away our, our clocks.
Edgar: We've thrown away our clocks. There's no such thing as alarms anymore. And we are living in a way where we know the people that live [00:38:00] around us.
We have built sustainable relationships where we show up for each other, where we understand the needs of those who are in our circles, and we understand how we can both ask for help as well as show up and offer ourselves to be of service to the community, to our circles, to our webs. And also. We are not organized around money.
We are not organized around the greed of a few psychopathic cis, straight white men who control what it means to be a human. We are organized around our relationships. Both in this realm as well as in the other realms that are important to our communities, and we are guided by the cycles of the moon and [00:39:00] the cycles of nature, and we are guided by the voices of the many we are in relationship with.
All that is around us, and we have brought back those reciprocal agreements. That are so important. That is what we are organized around.
Amy: Edgar, your voice is just like a deep breath. It's. Listening to you speak is, I know I started this by saying that I was like a, a anxious mess, and I've, I've just felt that melting away being in space with both of you.
Christopher, last time we spoke, I asked you about what a re indigenized world would look like, and you used the term murmuration, which is one of my. Favorite words, first of all, because it's so fun to say murmuration, but also like one of my favorite phenomena to see this happening in, in the animal kingdom.
So no need to focus on [00:40:00] murmuration, if I would love if something else comes to you or if you wanna talk about murmuration again, what does, what does a re indigenized world look like when you close your eyes and use your divine imagination?
Christopher: Hmm. I mean, I'm, I'm so drawn into, again, Edgar's poetic channeling and, and vision and, and feel with that, like you speakers and music and everyone making music and making art and.
All of that being so just, and like with the trees singing and the birds singing and the animals coming and, and be and, and adding to the instrumentation of it all again, like, and then, and then the murmuration starts again in response to the, to the sound waves and, and everyone just making love and like, you know what I mean?
And like twerking and like eating well and everyone being fed and. [00:41:00] We have figured out how to clean our oceans and to clean our air, and how to let spaces rest, like how to let part patches of the earth rest while we're also like working the land elsewhere, El and other parts, and just especially the ocean.
I've been really just thinking a lot about and like tide tics and, um, just cleaning and, and, and repairing all of the, the. Um, aquatic kin that we have in, in the ocean, I feel is it's just a part of it. Clean water is not being commodified and everyone has enough to drink.
Amy: I. Uh, I mean, we won't go off on another tangent because we don't have time, but I do just wanna, like, use my imagination to slip into the ocean and the mysteries.
The mysteries. Edgar, your work is on the moon, but hopefully someday it'll also be at the bottom of the Marriotts trench and examining those, [00:42:00] those mysteries held there. Um, again, I know you both have. Divinity to embody elsewhere today. So, um, listeners, this is part of a fundraiser and I wanna ask you both if there's a specific organization that you would love for our listeners to support if they feel so inspired.
Edgar: I can start. Um, I would love to just plug, uh, Bates in the Bay Area. They are an organization that works with two-Spirit, um, indi queer folks and, um, um, brings people together, um, in different ways through like our practice through, uh, creating powwow celebrations. Like there are definitely an incredible organization that I received a lot of healing from and has also connected me with a lot of folks.
That, um, I've been able to like, collaborate with commune with. And so there are definitely like an organization that's doing [00:43:00] important cultural work and also, um, doing work to, um, keep the flames of our, um, cultures alive. And so just really want to plug in baits the Bay Area, um, in indigenous two Spirit, um, organization in the Bay Area.
Amy: I, I just heard about this organization the other day because someone emailed me to ask if that would be an appropriate place to. Send their donation, reparation, and not just all caps, like Absolutely. I, I clicked on the link and I was like, oh my goodness, abs. This is exactly, this is exactly the place that you send your money.
Bates again, listeners, um, that link will be in the show notes. Um, Christopher.
Christopher: Um, I would, yes, uh, the Coalition to Stop Violence Against Native Women. Um, they're based in Albuquerque. Um, but just any, also any local org that that works against, like missing and murdered indigenous people or it's like, you'll often get that acronym, [00:44:00] MMIP or MMIW, indigenous Women.
It's developed I think to, to IP now, but, um, you can donate there. Um, the. There's, there's like 5K runs that are organized here, but they're not as like, set up for like, like the don like the funneling into getting donations and stuff like that is not as set up. Like, it's pretty like internally organized.
Um, so again, like the coalition to stop Violence against Native Women, you can definitely donate. Obviously that is. Um, just something near and dear to my heart. Any, anywhere I can support supporting for women in child, in native, native women and children are breaking cycles of violence. Of course.
Amy: Yes.
Thank you. And again, listeners, like we would love it if you would go right into your community and find something local to you. We've had so many people tell us that I didn't know this existed until I went looking. And, you know, that's the case with so many like. I didn't know that you Edgar or you [00:45:00] Christopher, existed until I went looking for you.
And when I found you, it was life altering. And that can be the same if you just go out into your community and look around. Like you'll be amazed. I. Amazed at what you find. Um, once again, make a donation of $10 or more to your local native women's shelter or indigenous support org, Bates Coalition to stop violence against native women or great places to start, um, or donate to the Native Women's Shelter of Montreal.
Take a screenshot of your receipt and email it to missing witches.com with the subject line reparation and you'll be entered to win. One of more than 20 fabulous prizes, like thousands of dollars worth of prizes are up for grabs. So we're doing these acts of reparations because we recognize that we have benefited from an extractive relationship with indigenous people and culture and land.
So that should be enough. [00:46:00] But hey, if you could win a prize all plus then, I mean, and again, the discount codes, it's likely that if you shop at House Switch or if you want a piece from Michelle, pay Jack Reynolds, that um, those discounts will. Pay for your donation. And so we're just in this watery realm of mutual aid and feeling the tide wash over us and back and over us, and back and over us and back.
I wanna thank you both so much and no pressure Edgar, but I do hope to hear Christopher on your podcast in the coming
Edgar: in the coming. That would be a huge blessing. Yes. Love, love, love that. And
Amy: again, Edgar, what's the best way for our listeners to support you and your work? Assuming they've already made their reparation donation, now they're moving on to supporting you specifically.
Edgar: Yeah. Yeah. I just wanna invite you to sign up for [00:47:00] my newsletter. Um, and you could also. So, um, check out my podcast and both of those are at you. Your r is a spell.com. Uh, and I also just want to say that my, um, podcast is on YouTube, and so if you are a YouTube person, want to invite you to subscribe to my channel and give a few views and a few likes to support the work that I'm doing.
And, um, I, yeah, really wanted to say thank you. For organizing this and for bringing people together in honor and support of our indigenous communities. It's such important work and just really want to highlight you, Amy, and Missing Witches, as well as all the wonderful folks who've come together to make this possible.
Like thank you for the work you're doing and I. Love the way you're saying it is like a, I saw it as a river just flowing of abundance and so many people are being fed from the waters of this river and just want to thank, thank all the people contributing their [00:48:00] water and their energy to the flow.
Amy: I mean, we're witches, right?
Like, isn't that what it's all about? To me anyway, that's what it's all about. And so if we at missing witches can sort of bring that to the forefront of people's consciousness as they're going about their day, then that's what I want to do. Hmm. Christopher, how can our listeners support you in your work?
Again, the book is Red Tarot from North Atlantic Books. We'll start there.
Christopher: Thank you for starting there. I almost forgot about that. Um,
Amy: I'm a PR agent. People are always like not mentioning their books and I'm like,
Christopher: I'm like, oh yeah, my book, I'm so like, you know, um, I just have to say like, again, yet, likewise with Edgar.
Like, thank you for doing this work and for this invitation for your writing and your. Community work. It's like if y'all, I'm sure listening feel is just like warmed and shined upon and like embraced and nourished, um, as I [00:49:00] personally feel in this moment. Then imagine how amazing you're gonna feel from all of the amazing collaborators and contributors pouring into this space and that you're also supporting indigenous futures and the work of reparations.
It's. It's profound. And so it's just, again, such an honor to have, um, an invitation and to share space. And if y'all like to, um, work with me more, stay connected. My substack is my newsletter. Um, the red read do Substack, you know, and it's red, the color, RED, and then READ. Um, and likewise the red read.com. My book, red Tarot, um, I offer consultations and I teach classes.
I'm always teaching. And so, um, you can find me perhaps somewhere near you. I was in Canada earlier this year. I'll be in LA for the LA Festival of Tarot, um, at the end of this month. And
Edgar: oh, that's so exciting. On a panel with Mary
Christopher: Kay Greer. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited.
Edgar: Oh my gosh. [00:50:00] Yes. Congratulations.
Christopher: So thank you.
So huge.
Amy: I've never been so sad to be an east coaster.
Christopher: I will, I I may be on the East coast at the end of the year as well per, so, so stay tuned. Do you know what I mean? Because I'll share where I will pop up And invite me. Please, please
Edgar: reach out when you come to LA 'cause I'm here, so I'd love to connect with you.
Okay. Yes,
Christopher: absolutely. I would love that so much. Um, and so, yeah, it's just. You know, all the things. It's, it's, it's an honor and it's a joy and I'm happy to be in circle together with y'all.
Amy: It's amazing how, you know, my whole nervous system has completely flipped from an anxious mess to, I have totally become one with the universe after this conversation.
And I just wanna thank you both so much, obviously for taking the time to sit down with me today, but also for just being brave. And putting your work out into the world, even though it means that you might get attention that we [00:51:00] don't want, you're doing it anyway, and you are making the world a more magical place every moment.
Um, I, I, it just, it, I'm filled and I know. You both have places to go and be amazing. So I am going to let you go forth and be amazing for today. But thank you again so much. I love you both so much. Someday we will be together in person. Hopefully I'll make it to the West coast at some point. Yeah, and in the meantime, everyone join the reparations fundraiser.
Find everything you need to know missingwitches.com. Slash reparations fundraiser dash 2025 or just go to missing witches.com and you'll see it in the banner and blessed fucking bee.
