Happy Equinox to the Missing Witches Coven! The geese are leaving the lake, the leaves are starting to fall, and we’ve got this one day to celebrate equilibrium before we tumble into the dark half of the year. Fall/winter is the perfect time to sit, alone, wrapped in a blanket with a cup of tea and start writing, so for Mabon, we’ve invited three Word Witches from across the USA to guide us into our writing practice: Sanyu Estelle, Charlie Burgess, and Kate Belew.
As Terry Tempest Williams wrote, "a pencil is a wand and a weapon" and our guests today will help us learn how to most powerfully wield this wand and weapon. Don't be afraid of the blank page, our guests tell us - it is an invitation to build worlds!!
Listen now, transcript below:
Sanyu Estelle is also known as "The Word Witch" because of her deep love for word origins (etymology) and word culture (philology). Sanyu is a self described pigmented, womoonist, cissy, flexible asexual, travel-apt and fashion forward SSJW (Sarcastic Social Justice Warrior). She’s also a musician, singer and lyricist - her Latest ALBUM 'Ship Wrecked came out last year. And she’s a tarot historian and CARD READER who promises THE READING YOU NEED, NOT THE READING YOU WANT. Her book The Cultural Roots of Tarot will be out in Fall 2026, so hopefully we’ll have her back on the pod to talk more about that more next year! In her essay I AM THE FIGHT Sanyu wrote, “Black Liberation does not equate to White Supremacy. IT REMEDIES IT.”
Find Sanyu on Instagram, YouTube and Patreon
Kate Belew is an author, poet, and Witch who’s work exists at the crossroads of creativity and craft. She has taught and facilitated circles and workshops worldwide since 2017. Kate has an MFA in Poetry from Sarah Lawrence College and is an initiated Green Witch, fully devoted to the magic of poetry and the poetry of magic. Also the co-host of Magick and Alchemy. The tamed wild podcast with co-host Kristen Lisenby. Kate's new book Word Witch is a literary grimoire, a guide and companion helping readers through the alchemy of becoming writers in which Kate reminds us that "Everyone is creative. Everything is connected. Writing is magic." . Word Witch is out October 7th, and available for pre-order now!
Find Kate on Instagram, subscribe to the newsletter.
Charlie Claire Burgess is a queer and trans-nonbinary author and artist working at the intersection of spirituality and queerness. A prolific author and deck creator, Charlie’s latest book is Queer Devotion. Queer Devotion reveals that spirituality has always been far queerer than we’ve been led to believe. Queer devotion’s first line is, “In the beginning, the gods were queer” and Charlie insists that they still are. Charlie’s decks too re-imagine archetypes beyond binaries. Their latest decks are The Gay Marseille and Fifth Spirit Tarot. And just to put a fine point on it: they are the host of the word witch podcast and Their IG handle is the.word.witch.
Find Charlie on Instagram and Substack and check out their work:
Queer Devotion book
Radical Tarot book
Fifth Spirit deck
For this Equinox, for this Coven of Word Witches, Charlie pulled the King Of Wands from their Fifth Spirit Deck, saying, "for me this is a card that is very much about creativity..."
Our guests were asked about childhood influences:
We mentioned: Where The Sidewalk Ends, Leaves of Grass, The Anansi Stories, and Kate's Giants
(now the ears of my ears awake and
now the eyes of my eyes are opened)
TRANSCRIPT:
Amy: [00:00:00] If you wanna support the Missing Witches Project, buy our books, new Moon Magic and Missing Witches, and our deck of Oracles, the Missing Witches Deck of Oracles. Or join the coven. Find everything you need to know at missingwitches.com.
Intro: You aren't being a proper woman, therefore, you must be a witch. Be a witch.
Be witch. A witch. Be witch. Witch.
Amy: You must be a witch. Happy equinox to the missing witches, coven. The geese are leaving the lake. The leaves are starting to fall, and we've got this one day to celebrate equilibrium before we tumble into the dark half of the year fall. Winter is of course, the perfect time to sit alone, wrapped in a blanket with a cup of tea, and start writing.
So for Mabon, the autumn Equinox, I've invited three word witches from across the USA triangulated even [00:01:00] to guide us into. And through our writing practice Sanu. Estelle is also known as the word witch because of her deep love for word, origins and word culture. Sanu is a self-described pigmented, womanist, sissy, flexible, asexual travel, apt and fashion forward.
SSJW, sarcastic social justice warrior. We love sarcasm around here. Love and light is great, but hey, gimme your sarcasm all day. She is also a musician, singer, and lyricist. Her latest album Shipwrecked came out last year and she's a tarot historian and card reader who promises the reading you need, not the reading you want.
Her book, the Cultural Roots of Tarot, will be out in fall 2026, so [00:02:00] hopefully we'll have her back on the pod to talk more about that next year. Sanyu an open invitation - in her essay. I Am The Fight. Sanu wrote, black Liberation does not equate to white supremacy. It remedies it. Kate Belew is an author poet in which whose work exists at the crossroads of creativity and craft.
She has taught and facilitated circles and workshops worldwide since 2017. Kate has an MFA in poetry from Sarah Lawrence College and is an initiated green witch, fully devoted to the magic of poetry and the poetry of magic. She's also the co-host of Magic and Alchemy, the Tamed Wild Podcast with co-host Kristen Lisenby. Shout out Kristen. Kate's new book, word Witch is a literary grimoire, a guide and [00:03:00] companion helping readers through the alchemy of becoming writers, in which Kate reminds us that everyone is creative, everything is connected. Writing is magic. Word Witch is out October 7th and available for pre-order now publishers love those pre-orders people.
Charlie Claire Burgess is a self-described queer and trans, non-binary author and artist working at the intersection of spirituality and queerness. A prolific author and death creator, death
Deck creator. Charlie's latest book is Queer Devotion. Queer Devotion reveals that spirituality has always been far queerer than we have been led to believe. Queer devotions. First line is in the beginning, the Gods were queer, [00:04:00] and Charlie insists that they still are. Charlie's Decks too Reimagine Architect Archetypes Beyond Binaries.
Their latest deck is Fifth Spirit Tarot. And just to put a fine point on it, they are, were, Charlie, maybe you can speak to this, are were the host of the Word Witch podcast and their IG handle is the word witch. So if you miss the title of this episode, use your context clues. Today we are talking about the magic of words as Terry Tempest Williams wrote A pencil is a wand and a weapon.
And our guests today will help us learn how to most powerfully wield this wand and weapon. Please join me in welcoming the beautiful, the talented, the wonderful, the exceptional. Sanyu [00:05:00] Estelle Kate Belew and Charlie Claire Burgess. Yay. Hi Kate. I'm gonna leave you till last because our listeners know you and they know your work.
So let's start with Sanu. I wanna start with this question. We say all the time, you are under no obligation to be who you were five minutes ago. Wonderful.
Sanyu: I agree.
Amy: So I wanna know like, who are you today? Is there anything that you want our listeners to know about you before we jump into my questions?
Sanyu: Today I am still a soothsayer, truth teller.
Claire Cognizant card reader. I have been, actually, this is totally random thing to say, but it is on my, on my spirit, whatever, that, you know, when you went into the science store in what my niece calls the 19 hundreds and there was the pins thing that you stuck your [00:06:00] hand into. Yes. And it took your, what was that called?
I am, I am desperate to know the mystery of that, because that's what I think of Claire Cognizance as Right. Clear knowing, please expand. Please expand. You know, it's like I know what I need to know, when I need to know it about what and who I need to know it about for as long as I need to know it. And then I forget it.
So I, you know, when I was getting into my craft, I'd be like, oh God, I'm not a psychic. Like I don't know things ahead of time. You know, I'd like have angst about it. And then as soon as people sat down, I would know things and I was like, oh, Claire Cognizant is like that pins thing. It's like when you need it and then it goes away.
So that's who I'm today. I get
Amy: like it pushes through, but then when you turn it, they all fall back. It's
Sanyu: like an impression. And then when people get up and go away, the impression fades.
Amy: I love that. That's what you want our listeners to know about you. Yes. Yes. Randomly, Charlie. Who are you today? Who were you yesterday?
Who cares about yesterday? But [00:07:00] you did a, you've done a lot of amazing work, so let's, let's talk about yesterday and today.
Charlie: Yeah, totally. Thank you. I think that the thing that I would add to your beautiful intro is that I'm actually currently working on a novel. So yeah, so I've got my two nonfiction books and now I am going back into fiction territory.
I started as a fiction writer. I have my MFA and fiction and wrote a lot of short stories, had some really cool success with that about like. 10, 13 years ago, and then life took me in a different direction and I found tarot and, and all this happened and is still happening. So I'm like not going away from tarot or witchcraft or spirituality, but.
I am writing a queer horror novel and I'm almost done. So
Amy: I, [00:08:00] I mean, I want to get through our introduction. Sorry, Kate. You're gonna have to sit there on mute for another second. But there's so much, I mean, like this, this overlap of like queerness and witchcraft and also this overlap of like queerness and, and horror in the sense of like monsters.
Charlie: Yes, yes, yes. Yes, absolutely. I have a essay coming out in the Rebus, which is a literary anology of creative writing and art surround that surrounds like one tarot card each time. But it's like creative writing. So it's poetry and essays and short stories. It's not just like this is what the tarot card means.
Right. And this issue is themed the devil. And so I wrote a essay on the Devil Tarot card as transgender liberation, and it's very much like that nexus of what you just said of like queerness. Yes, Sanya is holding up the wheel of Fortune issue, which was I think was the first one. [00:09:00] But yeah, it's very much that intersection of queerness and transness and monstrosity, but in like a beautiful liberating, I don't need to be what you tell me.
I need to be kind of way so. Yeah, totally. Which is also kind of what I'm doing with my book, so
Amy: I'm so excited to dive more into this because again, like I, I gathered you all together as it were, because you all self-identify as word witches, but you all have completely different practices and media and form and content and, and, and, and, and so we'll get into fiction versus poetry versus essays versus Kate.
Who are you today?
Kate: It's a great question. Who am I'm really happy. I'm happy to be here amongst word witches amongst all of you. This is really, I'm just really grateful. I'm still, still and always have been a poet [00:10:00] and a witch. And I'm here in Brooklyn and my dog Banjo is here with us, and that's me.
Amy: I'm a poet with a dog in Brooklyn. I the dream, the dream my younger self. You are living many people's dream. For sure. For sure. So let me start with the basics. And Kate, let's start with you since we ended with you. What is a word witch? Like, what does that mean to you? What does that mean to your practice?
And like, what is a word witch? What's the difference between a word witch and an author, a poet, a lyricist, an essayist.
Kate: Hmm. There are probably as many word witches as there are word witches. Like everyone just being so different and like you said, in their own craft. I guess to me a word witch is [00:11:00] someone who loves, loves language, who believes in the power and the intention of language, who crafts poems or stories or storytellers is a part of the larger lineage of.
Of creative ancestors who wants to be a good creative ancestor who takes the hand of the writers before us and throws the hand back. A word witch is a channeler, a word witch is a knower and a and a speaker. And we, we, all of us can be word witches if we want to be word witches.
Amy: And what do you think separates an author, a poet, a lyricist from a word witch?
Where does the magic come in?
Kate: I think that that for me is like the, the intention behind it and that like acknowledgement of that magic. Like I feel like all word witches can [00:12:00] be any and all of those things, but maybe not all of those people would identify themselves as a word witch or do the work of the word witch, which is like giving honor to, or, or.
Working with that Greater, greater magic.
Amy: Edgar Fabian Frees said to me once, and I I carry this all the time, is that what's interesting about Witch is that, is that we are self ordained.
Kate: Mm-hmm. And
Amy: so I think that's kind of what you're saying, the difference between a word witch and an author is that intention, that decision that, you know, knowing even.
Kate: Yeah, and that's something too that I think writers are as well. Like, I've always, I don't, I, I remember this moment of Conrad Hilbury, Michigan poet, where I grew up writing our names in third grade and our notebooks, and then signing and dating it with the statement is a poet. And so we, from that early age could like claim that, that word for [00:13:00] ourselves, because I think that there's, it's, it's hard.
It's a hard fight sometimes in this world to claim, claim our names, but poet and writer in which I think all have that in common.
Amy: Yeah, we'll come back to the liminal space of the blank page, but I do just wanna, I wanna suggest that at the top of the page, listeners start with, your name is a blank lyricist.
Mm-hmm. Poet essayist. Have that at the top of your page. I'm gonna start doing that. Amy Toric is asking Sanu the same question. What is a word witch and why do you call yourself that?
Sanyu: A word witch. All of what Kate said. I agree. And also I would say a word witch is someone who intentionally crafts language to deliver a particular message.
I think the difference between word witchery and maybe being [00:14:00] a writer, although obviously there's a lot of overlap because I think we're all writers too, and probably came into word witchery through writing is your investment even before the writing and after the writing in what was said. Right.
Because as a word, which I'll go back and like change things I've written when I change my perspective or I will take things offline that no longer align with the identity that I have today. You know, to a degree that you can take things offline and you're, I think the difference between a word witch and maybe any other kind of artist of words is you're how investigative and curious you are about like.
What you choose to say and what you choose to hear. 'Cause for me, I was a kind of child who underlined words and highlighted words I didn't [00:15:00] know, and then went home and looked them up in the dictionary, you know? Yeah. So there was an, that was always going to be a part of my character, whether I had found like craft or a pagan indigenous cosmology that then spiritually led me.
And then maybe also I would say a word, which is like intentionally spiritual. Yeah. And whatever that might mean across cosmologies and practices.
Amy: I love also your interest in etymology because it is this like digging and digging. We use words, I use thousands of words a day, but I'm not necessarily thinking about the root of the root of the root of the root.
But we all know where word witch is, right? We know that language. Informs, if not creates our reality via our perspective, right?
Sanyu: Yes. Language is a spell for sure. And you know, even when you get into the etymology of things like Word or, [00:16:00] or I have tattooed on my wrist, speak on this one, right? And I have listen on this one.
So like those still come down. I think a lot of people think of words in written form now that so many of us are literate. But obviously it was sounds and all oral telepathic communication, whatever our ancestors were doing way back when. So the way, and I like the roots is because I like to see the evolution of words and if they still mean what they were intended to mean from the beginning and like how they have grown.
Or not
Amy: and, and, and how they shape our wor world. Right. Absolutely. Like I absolutely, I remember I did a whole project when I was in school about the word virtue and the root of that being weird, which is like Latin for man, you know? So like from this feminist perspective of equating manhood with virtue.
And, and that's how we've been trained on language. Okay. Charlie? Absolutely. Charlie. Charlie. Charlie. [00:17:00] Charlie. What is a word? Witch? Yeah,
Charlie: well, sort of piggybacking on what you were saying a moment ago, Amy about language, language being a spell as Sanya said. I mean, it, it does, I think of language, well, it shapes our reality, for better or worse, it sort of defines how we understand reality.
Because when we make meaning of things, we make that meaning through language to a certain extent, you know, and as writers as well, I think we all know the struggle when like, you are looking for a word to describe something and just can't find that word. And sometimes it's because, you know, you just don't have it in your vocabulary, but sometimes it's 'cause it doesn't exist in whatever language we're using.
And I think that that's something that multilingual people really have up on us. Only, you know, my, I only speak English. I questionably speak Spanish and French, but like, not really, you know? Like [00:18:00] language defines what's possible for us in that way. And so I think that one thing, that word, which is do is play with that possibility.
Like have a heightened awareness of those possibilities and the limits of those possibilities, and do what we can to bend those. Sometimes, you know, because language might sort of create our understanding, but it's not all there is, you know, there's so much beyond that. And so I think that that's an important aspect when we talk about maybe g being the difference between being a writer or an author versus being a word witch.
You know, there's, there's a magic there. It's like our vocabulary is like a permeable membrane and like, I'm always trying to like. Sort of press beyond it to discover what else is on the other side, and then how I can sort of bring it back into my understanding or my reader's understandings. If that [00:19:00] makes sense.
Amy: It makes perfect sense to me. Yeah. And I, I like that you brought up this, like there's a difference between words and language, you know? Yes. Birds have language. Trees have language. The mycelial network has language. We use words, but we also have body language. You know, if I'm sitting with my arms crossed and scowling at you, that tells you a lot more than probably a lot of the words that I could say.
And sort of on this subject, like as we create the future with language, with words you, Charlie specifically, and Sanu specifically, your work contends a lot with rewriting history. Sanu, you wrote an essay called Rewriting History. Charlie, you are rewriting mythology, which it is history, you know, it, it, it informs how we have set up our universe.
So tell me about rewriting history and the permission to [00:20:00] do so. The desire to do so, the effect of doing so, Charlie, like why did you go into these histories and like reclaim them and rewrite them? How, how did this happen?
Charlie: Yeah. Well, for me and for the work that I've done, I don't think of it as rewriting history but instead as uncovering things in history that light hasn't been shut on previously.
Especially when it comes to like my second book, queer Devotion. What I'm doing there is like, sort of following like the hints and traces and whispers of queerness or of gender non-conformity into the past and specifically into the sacred stories of the past. Because what what's been handed down to us at this point has been written by mostly wealthy white men.
You know, like, and, and all traces of anything that they would consider subversive have been filtered out of it. You [00:21:00] know, it's been like they're the ones that rewrote history. Not, not us. And so I think of it as, as going back into history and trying to kind of resurrect what was there or what might be there.
Because unfortunately at this point it's impossible in some cases to go back and definitively say, you know, SFO was a lesbian. I mean, I like she wrote poetry, love poetry about women. So like, I think that's enough to say that SFO is a lesbian, but a lot of male scholars have argued that actually she wasn't because she had a husband.
Just foreign example. And I'm like, gee, no lesbian has ever had a husband before.
Amy: We're, we're all collectively rolling our eyes in the, in the Zoom room.
Charlie: Yeah, precisely. So, yeah, I mean, I, and I think that I definitely thought of the process of researching and writing queer devotion as one that was magical [00:22:00] and also devotional.
And very much was doing it sort of like in cooperation with the, the spirits and the entities that, that I personally work with. And so it definitely was an act of word witchery, you know? But yeah. Yeah. I'd love to hear what Sanu has to say about this.
Amy: Yeah. And while you unmute Sanu you made me think of Ana, who is, you know, our first known poet, a Sumerian priestess.
And a lot of her work was that devotional thing that you're talking about. And so I think that there's definitely room in our wor word witchcraft for just writing devotional. We think of like politics and we're angry about things and we're writing a letter to the editor or to our congressman, but like, equally valuable for our world building.
Are these like devotions to things that we love, whether it be Gods or flowers or San Elle, [00:23:00]
Sanyu: I was gonna say, or technology. Or technology oppression or whatever people are devoted to. So. Being born bread and buttered in Los Angeles, I tend to think, well, this version of me now, and, and in the past little while thinks of history maybe more like cinematically, like a series of still frames that create a narrative.
And yes, of course there's the, the first take, the first direction, the story as it was brought to form AKA history. And then there is everybody else in that frame and their own perspective of the history, right? So rewriting it is reorganizing the frames and creating different sort of focuses and narratives within the scope of a tale, right?
So of course we can see that [00:24:00] in the most like fun. And superficial ways like Emma becoming clueless, right? And, and that kind of reinvention, right? Or you can see it in, you know, a history where we were like, and everybody in that town was crazy. And then you're like, oh, it was moldy bread, or like a gas leak.
Or they were, you know, inhaling some sort of methane that was close to a cave that, you know, made them a little like different, you know? And then there's what I'm doing in the cultural roots of tarot, which is filling in gaps that people were just like, we're just gonna attribute it to whoever we want, right?
Because that's the last known place. But history is also how you organize your understanding by how you ask questions. And so if you don't ask any questions, there's very little to rewrite, right? But if you ask questions like, you know, I had a great. [00:25:00] Upbringing in the church. I'm not Christian anymore, but I love my church.
I still talk to people from my church. Sure. But as a young person sitting in the sermon, I'd be like, this is more to this story here. Like why aren't we talking about other universes or galaxies? Like what about aliens? What about dreams? You know, like my young self was like this cosmology is not meeting my needs.
Yes. And even though the community aspect is amazing, I am going to have to fill in some gaps here because I have more questions than these people are answering. And then I found Daoism, and then I found if shehe, and then I had a bunch of dream kind of experiences that were very prolific. And then I had some like first contact kind of extra terrestrial situations that brought in a lot of perspectives.
So it's like rewriting history is choosing the genre, the narrative, the pace, the story that you're gonna tell yourself about what is right, and then whether you commit to that. Hook [00:26:00] line and sinker, or whether you just let it be porous like Charlie was saying, and, and you know, ephemeral and sort of evolve as it evolves.
And and whether you can contribute enough of the truth because I do think that the truth is irrefutable, but it's also unknowable in its totality. So it's inherently paradoxical. Right. But if you know enough of whatever aspect of the truth that you are perceiving at you or your perspective may stand the test of time, and, you know, a thousand years from now, we may see that in any of our works.
And a thousand years from a thousand years ago, whoever decided to combine their forces to get the playing cards together and the major arcana together and have 'em arrive a hundred years apart in Italy. In this exact era where there was no political law because the Vatican had moved to Avil [00:27:00] for a hundred years because all the papal states in Italy were murdering each other.
And they were like, we don't have the time for this. And so, you know, if you're asking questions like that, you can find all kinds of things that are already kind of written actually and documented, but just haven't been included in the narrative in the same way. Like the Dead Sea Scrolls are not included in the Bible in the same way that King Richard's story isn't included in the Bible.
'cause if you knew his story, you might not be reading the Bible. But anyway,
Amy: editor's note San, you emailed me immediately after our conversation with that dreadful feeling. We all know the haunting of a verbal typo. She said, king Richard, but meant King James. I of course assume everyone in the room is smarter than me, and I know next to nothing about Richard the lion hearted.
So I didn't question the slip, but here's the gem. Charlie replied in the email thread quote, I'm sure King Richard wasn't a peach either. Sanu, my personal theory about the King James [00:28:00] Bible is that James or his Jacobian PR person commissioned it to distract from his many torrid gay love affairs. A detail I love sharing with Christians.
End quote. And as Charlie loves sharing this detail with Christians, I wanted to share it with you now back to the show. So
Sanyu: that's my thoughts.
Amy: I mean, thank you for bringing up the Bible, because this, if we need one example of how powerful words are, how powerful books are, like that's a, that's a great one.
This book has, you know, created the reality that many, many, many, many people live in. And you also got me to thinking about this like butterfly effect idea, right? Like, if we're talking about a thousand years ago and today and then a thousand years forward, we are with our work rewriting future history, right?
And so, Kate, I wanna know, like [00:29:00] you, your book is coming out soon. And so what's the future history that you want to, like, bring out of people? What, what would be the dream effect that your book would have on a thousand years or five years, or 10 minutes from now?
Kate: I, well, I love to think about that. I, I, the dream would be is that someone writes a poem because they read a prompt, and then maybe one of their future an future generations writes a poem because their grandmother was a poet.
Poet. And then the poems just kind of like travel through space and time, and more people feel more creative and are more connected to that space of power and voice in themselves. And everyone claims writer and poet for themselves, and everyone is writing. Without wondering if it's good or bad. Yeah.
Amy: We for the spring [00:30:00] equinox this year, mm-hmm.
I had our coven write spell poems. Mm. And then we, we recorded them, spoken out loud and that became the, the A star special for the podcast. And there were a few people in the coven who were like, I've never written a poem before and I'm going to do this for this. I was like, results, I can retire happy.
Like, yes, I am fucking Oprah Winfrey. You know, you've never written a poem and now you're writing a poem. Like I felt like my legacy has been solidified in this moment. Not that we're not carrying on and doing more and more and more and more and more, but just this idea to, to not necessarily be a world leader, but to inspire a world leader, I think is something that our culture has kind of pushed down.
It's gotta be me, it's gotta be now. And I, I, you know, it's gotta be. It's gotta be. It's gotta good be. It's gotta be. [00:31:00] But there is this idea, like we've all read a thousand year old books.
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Amy: And so again, I just keep going back to the NUS idea about like thinking a thousand years. In the future and all of your books.
All of our books, I'm one, I'm one of you. All of our books might, might still, still be there. So I wanna know from everyone and if something comes up, just jump in. But let's talk about that, that blank page. How do you conjure the bravery To go from a blank page to a full page. Sanu, you also made me think about the the Mama Lola quote of her biography.
Not an autobiography. She didn't write it of her biography. She said, I hate the book because I change and it doesn't, and I say that all the time. And you know, my coho, my [00:32:00] cohort Risa is like, don't say you hate the book in interviews. I'm like, no, I love our books. I love our books, but I change And they don't Sanyu, you were talking about, I can just pull that offline if I change my mind about that.
But just wait, you know, when your book comes out next year, you're not gonna be able to do that. So it requires, it requires bravery and imagination. And, and, and, and so let's start with Sanu. How do you conjure that bravery to take the page from blank to not blank.
Sanyu: You know, in my life that didn't require bravery, it's something I did very early on when I was like a, a, a wee child like below five, you know, before kindergarten age, my mom would read me to bed and so I, my first formative book read, like book reading [00:33:00] experience was a Nazi stories.
And and so I asked her to teach me to read so that I could read that shit myself after she decided she was gonna bed. And when I got to kindergarten. Miss Neil, great teacher, still think of her. We had like a painting hour and I can't draw a straight line. And I remember going to Miss Neil and being like, can I write instead of paint?
And she was like, you can write. And I was like, yeah. And she was like, okay, then you can go writing. So, you know, I learned to write early on. And so, and I did that mostly 'cause in a dream I had some sort of like experience where some being was like, you should write down your dreams. And I was like, I don't know how to write.
And so like I learned to do that. So writing my dreams down from an early age made the blank page more invitational, I think. It doesn't mean I'm always writing. I've definitely like put some things on the back burner that I are burning a hole in my head and those pages are blank. But like, [00:34:00] I think the, whoever gave this saying, like, the book writes itself, it's, you know, I.
I get inspired by doing the dishes. I have an idea. I stop doing the dishes. I go write the idea and, and maybe I'm not writing on paper all the time now. Maybe it's a note or an audio note or, but I'm always like constructing something. And so as long as I have some reference of a past versions of me is construction, this version of me feels very able to develop that.
And, and maybe not always in the mood. Okay. Maybe not always having the time, but always having the, the, so the resource of something to say or communicate, even if it's just to myself. And I think, you know, writing every day, whatever you're writing, maybe for people like us, it's sort of inevitable, like communicative, people communicate.
And [00:35:00] so there's always some aspect of writing since that's such a huge part of communication now that you don't just have to call people, but. I, I know I, it's kind of hard for me 'cause I love to write, so it's never something that I feel dragged to do. That being said, I'm still in the research part of my book, so if you asked me this in October, November, when I'm writing the book, I might feel differently about that, but I'll check back in on that question if it changes.
Amy: I remember during New Moon Magic, we, we had like, sent the manuscript and I discovered a little piece of trivia for lack of a little fact, and I immediately went to our editor and I was like, you have to let me put this in. You have to let me put this in. You have to let me put this in. And they were like, okay, okay.
We've got time to, you know, don't freak out. But Charlie, like Sanu used this word invitation. Is a blank page a challenge for you, or is it like, Sanu says an invitation to, mm-hmm.
Charlie: I mean, [00:36:00] the blank page definitely used to be a challenge for me. I, for me, in my process, I've, I tried to be one of those people who woke up every morning and wrote for x number of hours every single day, or five days a week or whatever.
And for me, I discovered that that's just not how I work. That's actually a great way to make myself burn out. Is if I'm, I'm trying to make myself do that when, like, when the fire's not lit, you know? And so for me, I've learned that like I, I kind of have to, you know, wait for the inspiration to strike and when it does.
That's when I sit down, like Sandy was saying, I'm doing the dishes. I get an idea, stop doing the dishes, sit down, you know I will cancel plans. I will write for literally 16 hours a day if it's, if it's rolling. Like, if it's, 'cause it is somebody, one of you, either Sandy or Kate, said something about Word, [00:37:00] which is being channelers.
And that is kind of, that's how it feels like when, when it's really happening. You know, it's like it's coming through from somewhere else and, or it's like riding me and I'm just like the bicycle and it's like, you know, going somewhere. But that being said at this point, like on with, with both of my books and with the novel I'm writing right now, I end up reaching a point when I'm far enough into the project that like starting the next chapter is.
Almost easy. Like I, I sit down, I stare at the blank page, and then I just start like fucking around. And then eventually, you know, something good starts happening. And I have been like writing this thing every single day for the last like three months, you know? But then after I finish a project, I'll go like, sort of like, I'll live fallow for a while.
Like I won't write anything for like two months or something. I mean, other than emails or Emails, yeah. [00:38:00] Instagram posts or whatever the thing is. And. I don't know. Like I've I love writing and I hate writing. Like, I love it when it's working. I hate it when it's not working and it's like pulling teeth.
And like I said, that's when I learned to sort of like, if it's feeling that hard, I like close the laptop. I go spend a day reading a book or spending time with friends or taking a hike. You know, I like, I have to fill that creative well in order to keep producing. And then almost always like the next day I'll come back and then I'll be able to like meet that page again and accept that invitation.
Amy: Yeah. And neurologists tell us that our brains need like study and then. Unfocused, like a walk, like you're saying, doing the dishes in order to really like synthesize information. Our brains need both. And of course capitalism [00:39:00] is like, no, you fucking work all the time and you never stop. And that's how you can become successful.
But our physiology says different. Kate is a blank page, an invitation to a party or a terrifying O oblivion. And also, I wanna know, and from YUSA and YouTube, do you have like a, I am at my desk from this time to this time, or do you just wait for the channeled spirits to tell you the poem?
Kate: That's a
Amy: two part question,
Kate: not not afraid of the blank page.
Like Sanu I've been writing to, I used to dictate poems to my mom, like before I could write and she would write them down and they're in a scrapbook about like unicorns and fairies. Like, those were like my first poems. But so that's always made a lot of sense to me. The sharing part for me is way, way scarier.
Sharing my full page with someone as a, like a deeply shy [00:40:00] person, but I am more afraid of not sharing than the sharing. And so the sharing must happen. But and then,
Amy: wait, what was the second part? The second part is like, what's your process? Do you have a practice that you stick to or do you wait for the muses?
Kate: For my longer projects, I like map it out and I don't, I can't do time because I will play games with myself about it in my head and nothing will get done. But I kinda like, have to like bait myself by being like, you can write a thousand words and you can either go outside or the a thousand words can take 12 hours and we'll sit here.
Which has worked for me because then I get to go to the park and that's like my creative foraging space. Like, I like to have that space to go kind of like do nothing or read or listen to someone else or something like that. But yeah, I can't, I can't do the schedule.
Amy: I'm, I'm going to [00:41:00] use this phrase from Kate, from now on, whenever anybody asks me to do anything, I can't do time and I'm just gonna leave it at that.
This is, no one will argue with you. I just like, can't do time right now. I'm not sorry. So tell me, you are a poet, but now you are like an instructional mannerist. So, and I wanna know this from all of you because you are all right, in different forms in different media. So how do you decide what's gonna be a poem and what needs to be a book and what's gonna be fiction and what is going to be, again, like, you know, research based, like, like Sanyu your book is going to be and also like why.
Why did you need to write word witch? Why did you need to write queer devotion? Why do, do you now [00:42:00] Sanyu need to write the cultural roots of tarot, like Kate, like I'll, I'll start with Kate. Why did you need to write this book?
Kate: I, I feel like just after teaching poetry and writing in so many forms, I felt so called to make it more widely accessible and that someone could kind of like go on that journey for themselves without me in the room.
Like I've taught seventh graders and I've taught in in prison and I've taught in colleges and I've taught in retreats on the beach, and it's just been like, you know, a whole spectrum of the human experience and I've seen how. Writing can help people and change people. And so I wrote the book really because I feel like so many of my teachers and the writers that came before me supported me on my path.
And if I could even just be like a single little stepping stone in the [00:43:00] path like that, then it will have all been worth
Amy: it. And how did you go from, oh, I should write this book and I am writing this book because I think I should write that book is like, everybody thinks that, but the people who actually go and write the book are not, the list is not that long.
So how do you get from idea to manifestation?
Kate: That's a good question. I feel like it was just like, I'm doing this thing. Like I just, I don't even remember there being a choice or like a decision. It was like, I want to write, I'm going to write this book. And it started out as like a little workbook that I had just for like my email list.
It was just a few like poetry spells and prompts, and I think it just kind of like evolved into this bigger thing. I like found old like Canva graphics from like 2014 that were little like witch hats that said word witch under it. And so I just feel like it's like been, the seeds had been planted and like the, the book [00:44:00] was like always happening, if that makes sense.
Amy: It makes sense to me. Sanu Charlie, did your, or have your books always been happening?
Sanyu: No, not for me. I mean, I'd really have to shout out Brittany Carmona Holt because when she wrote Tarot for Pregnancy Radical. I have it here. What is it called? So I don't butcher the name of it. It went, oh, here we go.
Tarot for pregnancy. A companion for Radical Magical Birthing Folks. Right. So when she asked me to write the history of Tarot chapter, I kind of, I didn't learn to read cards through any sort of formal education, just had a teacher read for me, and then I bought a deck and I messed around with enough decks for long enough that it started to make sense.
So I didn't have any attachment to tarot history or anything like that, but when she asked me, I was like, okay, well I could go at it from a word [00:45:00] perspective, you know, like I can be like, what is the etymology of tarot? And like other words that were involved in this and stuff. And then just doing that and finding some book from the seventies that was like.
Playing cards were originally called Malu cards. And I was like, Mamluk is not an Italian word. And like that led me down a, a rabbit hole where I was like, whoa, okay. Calling it tarot Italian is an exaggeration. Definitely Italy had to do with bringing it together, but like, let's talk about 78% of the tarot deck being the minor arcana, which was basically playing cards with four extra cards that we call the pages.
And so that is why I ended up starting my book. But the kind of funny thing about that, to just reiterate things that Kate and Charlie have said, and you, Amy is like, the idea is like a specter, you know, it like haunts you, you know, you're waking up with it, you're going to bed with it. It's like the creature on your back and like.
You can marinate on it as long, [00:46:00] as long as you like. And we happened to be in quarantine when Britney had asked me to do the first chapter. And then LA didn't just go through quarantine. We had the strike and then we had the year after the strike, which basically means like, LA is like Detroit without cars, you know, Hollywood is our industry, right?
So there's no business happening. Okay. And then we had fires. So I had a lot of time to be like, oh, can't do that job. Oh, can't do that. Okay, well maybe I'll, you know, write a book since I've been talking about it for so long. But something that Kate said that I think is so about the sharing, you know, I actually think the blank page is an invitation for me because I don't think I do my best writing until I share it.
It's literally, I'll share it, I'll share a post, I'll write something, I'll share a newsletter, and then I'll reread it and I'll be like, ah, typo. Like, and I've already, and I've read it 10 times and I've read it out loud and I've done all the things you're supposed to do,
Amy: babe. But it's something that, babe, I'm the queen of not seeing the typo until I've posted or submitted or, and, and like you say, I've read it a hundred [00:47:00] times.
Sanyu: It's something about knowing other eyes are on it. Other minds are on it. That I think shifts my perspective as I read it, because I talk about this actually in cups, you know, like the suit of cups in tarot. I'm like, it's the suit of creativity and emotional intelligence. But like, it's the suit of creativity and procreation and like romantic relationships, because a child is the most autonomous creation you can make.
It's like a made out of you. It doesn't have to give a fuck about you. It doesn't have to like you talk to you, right? Like, but when you write the book, those are your words. And when you paint the picture, those are your painting, you know, your brushstrokes. And like, there's an autonomy to writing too, especially with the internet and with like the digital writing, because people can copy and paste whatever aspect of it they want and they can interpret, they cannot read the whole thing and interpret the beginning and then make an assumption about it, you know?
And so something about sharing it makes it much more alive. Real to me. So [00:48:00] inevitably I do think that publishing and writing books and all this would was an interest of mine, but I'm like the, I'm actually kind of like Charlie in that I came up reading and writing a lot of speculative fiction, but because of my degrees being in sociology and political science and criminology and like all these other like, I don't know, technical writing things and me also liking to write and like enjoying language and looking it up made me a good nonfiction writer, which is not something I tend try to be.
But I think when you're in the church and you're a lay person and you have to do reading in front of people and learn these fucking words like, I don't know, IANS and like, blah, blah, you know, you're learning all this zebo czar, you know, like you're, you're, you're just reading all these things where you're like, what the fuck is that?
And and it makes you just a lot more. I don't know if you're, if you're questioning it makes you a lot more analytical. And so, like this book, the Culture Roots of Tarot is only being written by me [00:49:00] because someone else hasn't written it already. You know, I was reading enough things to be like, why the fuck isn't this written?
Like, playing cards have been around a thousand years. Like this is absurd. But the is good for business, right? Like it's, it's magical and I am magical. And you're like, history is still magical if you like, know it, you know, like it's, it's not less magical because you know more shit about it. Like and so I am writing it from a perspective of like, as a service.
And because I have the mentality to ask the questions for enough people that I hope, you know, it stands the test of time, but like. I would not have gotten around to this at this time if I hadn't been asked by Britney. And if five years of LA being down bad had given me other things to do, you know, I would've probably ended up trying to get some fiction published first.
But the amazing thing is I've tried to get fiction published for years and no one will publish it. And every time I write something about nonfiction, esoterica, [00:50:00] people were like, I'll publish this. So I'm like, okay, well I'll go with the synchronicities. I, who am I to argue with existence about this shit?
Amy: That's it. That's it. I do wanna say like the Missing Witches project started because Risa had this idea about writing a piece of fiction where two women were doing the Missing Witches project essentially. And then she was like, wait a second, I don't think this is fiction. I think. I'm gonna call Amy and we're gonna do this, you know, and so I, I pass it to Charlie.
Your work, is it something that someone was like, you should write this book, or was it simmering forever, or, mm-hmm. Are you halfway between Kate and Sanu, where,
Charlie: yeah. I mean pretty much, I think all of my major projects have kind of happened by accident. Like my, my first deck, fifth Spirit Tarot I was [00:51:00] just like doodling one night, which I, I didn't think I was an artist by the way, before I made Fifth Spirit.
Like I knew I could like do little doodles, but I'd never, I'm not like. Trained, you know, I just sort of figured it out on my own as I was making that deck. But yeah, I was just like doodling one night and drew an Ace of Cups and I had like felt around that time that like, for like weeks leading up to that, like something big was coming, like something wanted to come through, but I didn't know what it was.
And I think it was actually, I think I actually drew that like on the Aquarius New Moon or something as well. Anyway. And I like looked at the Doodle, which was uncharacteristic of me 'cause I almost never doodled back then. And was like, oh my God, it's an ace of cups. Am I right? Am I making a tarot deck?
I don't know. Let's find out. And so then I just like kept doodling and eventually it turned into Fifth Spirit. And when I, I did the [00:52:00] Kickstarter for that. After all the art was made, I hadn't actually written the guidebook yet. I wrote the guidebook after all the art was made. And then the guidebook for that, for the indie version of that deck just turned into a full length book on tarot, like, which was ostensibly about the cards that I had illustrated, but was very much trying to be its own book on tarot.
And so then later when Fifth Spirit got picked up by a publisher I rewrote, like I made a smaller guidebook that could actually fit inside of a deck box instead of just like a full link actual book. And then wrote Radical Tarot, which very much kind of like began as that original Fifth Spirit guidebook, but became its own.
Thing. Right. And queer devotion kind of like happened the same way I was teaching a class for a local shop here in Portland called Sea Grape Apothecary. And the class was called Queer [00:53:00] Devotion. And it was about, you know, working with various queer deities and like doing devotion queer and stuff like that.
And I, the PDFI made for that class was like 25 pages long and just like packed full of information. And their events coordinator at Sea Grape was like this should be like a whole book. And I was like, oh, maybe it should. And then I wrote Queer Devotion and like the novel I'm working on right now literally came to me in a dream, which.
I didn't think was a real thing that like happened to people, but it's never happened to me before. It's very, very real. But it happened. I'm usually a person that doesn't really remember my dreams. So that was like a major surprise. But I remember having this dream about this like queer immaculate conception.
Waking up and being like, oh, holy shit. And like literally getting up at like 3:00 AM and like writing the whole dream [00:54:00] down. 'cause I was like, I feel like this is something. And so then the novel that I'm working on came out of that. So have they always been in me? Maybe. But I think that I've needed like these invitations to sort of like unlock them.
And so I think that there is definitely like a, I've learned to sort of like listen to the universe when it's talking to me and when it's like. Maybe you should make a tarot deck. Maybe you should write this book. Here's a weird ass dream. Go for it. Yeah, yeah.
Amy: I have to tell you, Charlie Ash is in the chat saying that she has been reading Radical Tarot and it's truly ex an excellent guide to deepening the cards.
So I just wanted to speak that out loud. Charlie, do you have a copy of fifth Spirit with you?
Charlie: Yeah. I'm so glad that I'm actually wearing real real pants right now 'cause I'm about to
Amy: you go grab it. And in the meantime, [00:55:00] in the meantime, Sanu I can't let you pass by without asking about Quantum.
Witchcraft. I mean, when we were going back and forth before today, you told me your personal practice is quantum witchcraft and there's no fucking way I am leaving here without hearing about that.
Sanyu: Yes. You know, quantum witchcraft is, the way I think about it is using your self and your experience as a form of divination, right?
Like you can use yourself like a pendulum. In Congolese tradition, there's a thing called NOx, and it's like things your body does or ticks that you have that indicate to you that a certain energy or presence or thing is happening. So it's like, oh, my head leans to the left when I'm thinking about this energy, or The back of my back feels warm when I'm thinking about this.
So there's already a many divination types of of this. [00:56:00] But I've organized mine around like sort of ORIC sigils, where I create what people would call mantras. I call oric sigils, right? 'cause it's not in the tradition of the mantra. So I create language, linguistic spells that you can use to sort of orient your life and yourself as the thing that you're using to inform yourself about what needs to be done, right?
So quantum witchcraft is. Based upon several tenets, but one of those tenants, me being Taoist, practicing also being a part of bashar org and like having a lot of interesting connections from that community that over the course of my life and not even knowing that has created a reality where you don't invalidate what you don't prefer.
That existence takes all kinds. And so the idea is not to use and end Taoism. This is the case too. Like there's a, in the Da Ching, a passage is like, do you think you can improve the world? I don't think it can be done. The world is perfect and [00:57:00] it's your perception of the world that imperfects it, right?
So people are what they are. They have a right to themselves. They have a right to whatever they choose to believe about themselves and for themselves. And that is not our job to change, but it is our job to use, you know? And so quantum energetics is how do I use what I don't prefer in a way that I do prefer, so I still get the benefit of the experience, you know, I like to say that.
Yeah, that like you need an ego because you have an identity, but like neutral ego is all verbs. I sleep, I eat, I love, I laugh, I die. Right? It's like the fool card all presents. Yes, no worry, no anxiety, everything I give to the moment. And so I don't worry about the next moment 'cause I know I'm gonna give it all.
And I don't worry about the past moment 'cause I know I gave everything that that version of me had to give. But a master of personality is like, how do I use everything that has happened to me to become more of who I prefer to be myself? And then a master of negative personality is how do I use everything that has happened to me as a [00:58:00] reason I cannot be who I truly am.
Right? So quantum energetics is sort of navigating that reality.
Amy: I don't wanna put any more on your plate than you already have, but I will buy the shit out of quantum witchcraft as soon as you write it. I'll give you some time, but like pre-ordered.
Sanyu: Awesome. I wrote a chapter on it in a confluence of witches, which is Casey D books.
Yes, of course. It's around here somewhere. That's why I'm looking around. I'm like, all my books looking
Amy: around too, like
Sanyu: I love it. Right? It's here. Yes. I have a chapter in there. Yes. So I have that. But yeah, I definitely will expand into a book. But, you know, it's an interesting practice because I'm not so much, I mean, I have tattoos of words and I, I love casting intentions with my words and casting spells in this way, but I'm not super like practical magic.
Pocus pocus. You know, I'm not out here casting and, and make and manipulating through. I [00:59:00] mean, I grew up in a concrete jungle, so like, maybe if I had like, had woods at my disposal and shit, I would've been much more of that leaning. But you know, I'm from a place where even the palm trees are not indigenous, you know?
So I'm like, okay, I'll use what I have, which was myself and do. Yeah. And all the answers are in you. You know, I think of it as the scene in the fifth element where she's like, the stones are in me, the opera, the diva. Mm-hmm. The stones are in you. Okay. But like, you need to know that, trust that. And okay, last principle of it is that you use existence to trust existence, whereas a lot of people use existence to not trust it.
But you're right, you're still using existence, you know? So I trust existence because it's infinite and it made me so, I don't know why shouldn't and it, you know, makes life a little more funny
Amy: than cruel. Spirit definitely has a sense of humor. There's no question about that.
Sanyu: It's got a perverted sense of humor.
Very. Kate Kinky. It's Kate. Kate
Amy: Brianne is [01:00:00] here. I am here. Oh my gosh.
Kate: Hi.
Amy: Hi. For those listeners Brianne is the one who introduced me to Kate, so that's cute. Thank you. Brian, do you have a question for our word witches?
Bri: I do. First of all, big fan of all of you, so yay. If you could go through time or, or history and talk to a word witch that influenced your your work, who, who would you wanna meet?
Amy: I'll mute myself. Now. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take a wild guess. Like Emily Dickinson, Audrey Lorde. Oscar Wild. Anyway, that's just a wild guess for me.
Charlie: Did you literally just read our minds? Yeah. Because like, I don't know which one you're pointing at, but I was thinking of Oscar Wild.
Kate: I was thinking of Emily Dickinson, so [01:01:00]
Sanyu: That's funny.
I was thinking of La Sue Very Good. Or Nina Simone. But Audrey Lorde of course as well.
Amy: Yeah. But now I want, like were those the answers that you actually would've given if I hadn't interrupted you? I was literally
Charlie: thinking of saying Oscar Wilde, although Audrey Lorde. Absolutely. But yeah, Oscar Wild was top of mind for me.
Kate: Yeah. I was moving between Lorca and Emily Dickinson.
Amy: Do you wanna expand?
Kate: I just love Locus theory and play of DW Day, so, so much. And it's just been such an influence in my life and if you haven't read it, I just recommend it. And I just, Emily Dickinson was the first poet that I remember reading with my dad.
Like he was this like Emily Dickinson for young young people book. And like, we had the dictionary out, like Sandy was talking about. It was like, what words don't we know? We're gonna go look them up in this Grimoire. And it was [01:02:00] just, she has, she's just her envelope poems. I love her. Gorgeous. Nothings like, I memorized the poem.
I'm nobody, who are you? And when I was seven and I can still do it. And it's just like, that is my, yeah. So thanks for reading my mind. Amy, who would you pick?
Amy: Oh. Emily Dickinson, Oscar Wilde, and Aard, and we'll have dinner together and it'll be fucking amazing. I, I would have to probably put Kurt Vonnegut in there.
Ee Cummings. I want to talk to Ee Cummings about, about a line breaks and punctuation. Charlie, do you have an EE Cummings quote tattooed on? I do.
Charlie: I do. It's the last two lines of his poem that starts with I thank you, God. For this most amazing day for the leaping green leaf spirit of trees and the blue true dream of sky, et cetera.
But it's the last two lines from it, which are now the ears of my ears awake. And now the eyes of my eyes are [01:03:00] opened. So
Amy: this is listeners word witchcraft. We are fucking psychics. We are Claire Cognizant. We are tattooing each other's favorite poets on our bodies. We'll take one more question and then Charlie, will you pull a card from your deck to sort of send us off?
Great. Jasmine Jasmine's a teacher and is super stoked on the teacher Love that was coming through.
Jazz: I just got back from work and I'm co-parenting tonight. So I love to read and write and I wanted to ask the guests when you were little, what is the first book? Because I'm surrounded by little ones this year.
What is the first book that made you go, oh, I really love this. So mine was when I was four, I got a book called Happy Birthday Little Witch from my aunt who replaced all the [01:04:00] pictures of the witches with pictures of my family, and I still have it. So there's a little, but yeah. I would like to know as a teacher who this year is teaching the littlest, supporting the littlest of kids, what is the book that you can remember, maybe your first book that you went, wow, I really love this.
Amy: I will start while everybody unmutes. Shell Silverstein where the sidewalk ends, and a light in the attic. I, his sense of humor to my like 5-year-old brain was so compelling saying you was holding up a copy of where the sidewalk ends because of course you are and you but yeah, that's like my, and I, I, it's funny because I, I, you know, I have degrees in English literature and journalism and all that stuff, and people ask me, who is your favorite poet?
And I still say Shell Silverstein because his work was so evocative [01:05:00] for me and the illustrations and just, I've memorized so many of them, so I know you didn't ask me Jasmine, but I'm here too. So. That's my answer. Sanu Charlie, Kate, your
Sanyu: opinion super matters. I mean, I can still quote Thank you. Tickle me.
Pickle me pickle. I can still quote lots of Shell Silverstein poems because it's memorable for me. I really like Ananzi's folk tales, obviously that's why I chose to learn to read. But why I like Ananzi is because he's an imperfect protagonist. He's a trickster. So like Rumpelstiltskin, his job is to get himself into trouble and to get himself out of trouble.
And I think it embraces children's spectrum of ethics. And still the inevitable happens. Like when you trick people, they don't like it. And that's why Nazi always ends up getting called out. And so I really like those stories and there's so many different versions of those folktales that you can find in various books.
Amy: Yes, Kate, Charlie [01:06:00] first whispers.
Kate: Yeah, my mom used to read me this book called Kate's Giants, and it was about this little girl Kate, who had night terrors like I did. I was so afraid of the dark. And basically like the more, the lesson of the book is if you can think them up, you can think them out. So it like taught me the power of imagination on both ways.
And I still think that to myself. Like, I'm like, okay, if I can think it up, I can think it out and thank you. Kate's giants.
Amy: Yeah. What a, what a powerful like anti-anxiety tool.
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Amy: Very good. Charlie? Yeah,
Charlie: I've been trying to think of something from like young childhood, but I don't actually remember a lot of my young childhood for reasons.
Mm-hmm. But my mom used to read me poetry when I was going to bed or just whenever. That's one of the reasons I have that Ee Cummings poem on my arm is because it's one of the ones that she would recite all the time. I actually had it memorized [01:07:00] before I ever saw it written on a page, and so sometimes when I'm reciting it, I actually get words.
Wrong or flipped because it's the way my mom would say it instead of the way it was actually written. But she would also read me Walt Whitman leaves of Grass as like a little bitty kid. So, you know, thank you mom. And she's like,
Amy: here's some queer iconography. Uhhuh young child.
Charlie: Yeah. And then, and then she like had no idea that I was queer until I told her when I was 30.
She knew somewhere deep down. I know she did,
Amy: but I'm, I'm not even sure SFO is a lesbian, so don't you
Charlie: dare Amy. Don't even, don't even yeah, but I can't remember. I mean, I know there was this one picture book that I was obsessed with for a while that was called Gwynna, but I can't remember anything about actually the plot of it.
I just remember there's like a girl with wings on the cover, you know, so. Walman and [01:08:00] Ee Cummings, I guess.
Amy: Will you pull us a card for Word witches everywhere from Fit Spirit and while you're doing your little shuffle Sanyu Kate, start thinking about what you want to tell our listeners about how to support you.
Sanyu, I know you've got a Patreon, Kate, obviously your book is, is available for pre-order. Start thinking about that as we shuffle and we'll wait for Charlie to pull a card. No rush. The spirit will flip the card out when it's ready to.
Charlie: I just flipped half the deck exactly when you said that.
Amy: Perfect.
Sanyu: Yes, I was gonna say, shout out to all the moms who read to us. Yes. And mothers, whatever. They, my, the gender.
Amy: My mother had me under the guise of helping her memorize. I was about eight years old and I memorized Macbeth soliloquy the tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow [01:09:00] one. Obviously I still know.
She was like, I wanna memorize this. Help me. And I'm like eight years old, reciting it, trying to like ostensibly help her memorize it. She still doesn't know it, but I know it. So, yes. Thank you Sanu for shouting out. Those like parents, teachers, witchy aunties who get us those books, who read us those stories, who encourage us to memorize soliloquy and poetry.
Sanyu: I love that you can still recite it and she can't. Of course,
Charlie: I pulled the King of Wands for us. From the spirit. What does, what does that mean
Amy: to you?
Charlie: I mean, for me, this is a card that's very much about creativity. It's wands, right? Which is the suit of passion. It's the suit of like, of energy, of creativity.
I think of wands and cups as kind of working together in the creative we [01:10:00] realm. But Juans is like the fiery inspiration side, the like active, I'm gonna do something about this inspiration side and cups. The water is like that sort of channeling and emotional, like the feeling behind the creative work that we do, but.
The King of Wands and as well as the Queen of Wands are very much like the, the doers, the creators. You know, I think that the reason we've got the king here instead of the queen is because in Fit spirit, like the, I've got the the king is holding that torch up high and sort of like leading the way, carrying a flag.
Not an American flag, just in case that gets misunderstood somehow. And I think that the King of Wands, I mean the King of Wands is also a leader and so maybe it's showing up to remind all of us word, which is that the. [01:11:00] The things that we write, the, the, the things that we put our intention behind to, behind and put out there and share with the world, have the potential to lead other people, right?
To bring other people with us, inspire us, show them the way forward for themselves. And it brings me back to something that we were talking about near the beginning, about 2000 years from now, will our, our books still be read? Will they still be remembered? And I was thinking as we were, as we were talking about that, that like, it doesn't even really matter if there are specific books, they're still being read because they will have been read by people who then go forth and create things that then other people will read, who will then create things that other people will read.
So even if our books are completely forgotten, we're still leaving like a, a, a trail, like a, a legacy. Right? And that's, that's beautiful and important, so. King of Wands.
Amy: Thank you so much for just pulling [01:12:00] the absolute perfect card Sanu. Kate, do you have any thoughts about the King of wands before we move on to shameless self-promotion?
And when I say shameless, I mean fucking shameless. Please brag about all the rad shit that you're doing and how people can support you. But if you have thoughts about the King of Wands, please add that to your speech.
Sanyu: Yeah, I like to think of wands as the suit of learning, the difference between embodiment and performance. And I read my ACEs high, so my ace is above the king. But king of wands for me is an advocate of passion, meaning like, Hey, I love this thing. I'm gonna go do this thing. If you need to find me.
That's what I'll be doing. Whereas when it's reversed, it's like, isn't this thing that I want you to do with me, the most special thing in the world? And whatever you wanna do is dumb, but you should come do what I'm doing. You know? So the upright king is like, [01:13:00] I'm passionate about this thing, I'm gonna go do this thing.
And leading by example, suppose. And so that's all I would add to that.
Amy: And what about your infinite radness? How can our listeners support you? Pay you? Yes. Tell us about your album, which is fantastic, listeners. I love that you
Sanyu: brought that up. I the album life is a different life in a way. I mean, obviously I, I wrote all the songs so.
There's that aspect of it. But yeah, I did release an album Shipwreck. I put all my relationship songs on one album and then I was like, I'm done with it. I'm not, they're, I'm not singing about relationships anymore. It's all on one album called Shipwreck, which is relationship reck. Yeah, it's so
Amy: clever.
Shipwreck,
Sanyu: you know so clever, you know, getting using them as buoys to get to the land, using the little shards and shattered things. So I love that. Listen to that. That's on all the platforms. I'm writing a book, the Cultural Roots of Tarot. I'm going back to Italy in next week to go to the Florence Archives and the Venetian [01:14:00] archives where they have things from the fifth century onward.
And I'm gonna look at the cargo maritime records. I'm gonna see who was shipping what to who, and I'm gonna see what the fuck was on the boats. And I did an Indiegogo campaign for that, which is over. However, if you go through my links on sanya still.com, you can still find ways to, as I like to say, like the folktale, help me bake this bread.
Like the hen who went around to all the animals and was like, do you wanna help me make the bread? And everyone was like, nah, you can help me make the bread. Yes. It costs money to pay translators, which I have to do for Coptic and Arabic and Latin and Italian and all the languages of those ancient worlds.
And I'll be writing the book through December and then editing it. Through release, I'm sure whenever it gets through this. You all know more about that process than me. This is my first book with my name on it. So I'm very proud about that. Otherwise my books are closed until October. 'cause otherwise I'm never gonna get this shit done.
But I do readings in person in [01:15:00] LA and virtually I will be teaching quantum energetics again, which is my methodology for quantum witchcraft. And you have a Patreon? Yes. You have a Patreon? I have a Patreon. Thank you. I have a Patreon where you can get the cheapest readings from me. I do a monthly read there, but also if you're at the top tier, which is 10 bucks, you get a card pulled every month, which is the really the cheapest way to access me.
And other than that the book will be out in fall 2026. Red Will Wiser. So do read, have me on your things. Tell me to come into your town, tell your local bookstores to carry my shit all those wonderful things. And your local metaphysical witch stores. And that's my spiel.
Amy: I'm so tempted to just like book the three of you for Map on again next year and we can see where all of these projects have gone and developed because obviously I'd love that.
I wanna keep talking to the two of you, the three of you for like the next six hours. But I'm not gonna do that to you or our listeners. Kate Belew. The book is word Witch [01:16:00] Pre-order it now. What else? Infinite Radness. She's here.
Kate: Yay. Yes. So it's out October 7th. No readings to add to the King of Wands because I'm solely a tarot admirer, but both of those readings really resonated with me, so thank you for that.
And what else? You can find me on Instagram at K eight Belew. I'm over on substack writing about word witchy. You have a newsletter. A newsletter that goes out weekly.
Amy: You people, you people are terrible at self-promotion.
Kate: Terrible. I'm like, what do I do again? Who am I? I'm down for Mabon next year. This has been so much fun.
So much fun. And if you pre-order word witch, I'm going to have a little like pre-order launch party. You just, if you go to my link you just submit to the photo of the book or the proof of the book or whatever, and they'll send you a link. We'll do a writing ritual. We'll [01:17:00] celebrate. It'll be a blast.
Amy: Yeah. Yeah. Infinite radness. Charlie.
Charlie: I think that being horrible at self-promotion is a prerequisite in order to be a writer. So we're all doing a great job at being writers. I mean, we work in like solitude basically most of the time, right? So it's self-promotion is hard. That's why I'm here, babe.
Yeah. Yeah. My decks are Fifth Spirit Tarot and queer Devotion. Nope, that's not a deck, that's a book. See. Horrible. My book, my decks are Fifth Spirit Tarot and the Gay Marsay Tarot. And my books are Radical Tarot and Queer Devotion. Queer Devotion just came out a few months ago. And I have a substack called Queerly Devoted where I write about.
Queerness, transness, transitioning deities. A lot of stuff that I couldn't fit in. Queer devotion because word counts are a [01:18:00] thing. And yeah, like ostensibly, I'm on social media at the word witch on Instagram and something similar to that on Blue Sky. I can't remember.
Amy: Thank you, and of course, listeners, all of this will be in the show notes.
I want to thank my guests again so much, and honestly for me, the blank page is a challenge, and now I can reinterpret it, rewrite this personal history and think of the blank page as an invitation. And listeners, poets, lyricists, essayists, novelists, researchers to-do list makers, whatever you are writing, this can be an invitation to a thousand years in the future.
Thank you so much. Sanyu Estelle, Charlie Burgess, Kate Belew for being word witches, for having the bravery, whether you feel like it's brave or not, to put your work out [01:19:00] into the universe for me to. Eat and drink and feed myself with, I wanna say happy Equinox. I just want to thank you all so very, very, very much for being with me on this blessed day.
Thank you.
Sanyu: Thank you for being such an amazing host. Informed questions. I was like, you read essays I haven't looked at since I wrote them. I was like,
Charlie: and thank you for all of your amazing word. Witchery Amy. Yes, yes. Yeah, we're
Amy: we are all in this together. My loves. We are all in this together. And as we always say, blessed fucking be.
Sanyu: Blessed, fucking blessed fucking be.
Blessed fucking be. Be
Intro: a witch. Be a witch. A witch. Be a witch. A witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. You must
Amy: be a witch. If you wanna support the Missing Witches Project, buy our books, new Moon Magic and Missing Witches, and our deck of Oracles The Missing Witches Deck [01:20:00] of Oracles. Or join the coven.
Find everything you need to know@missingwitches.com.
